BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Dogtown on March 27, 2014, 12:43:04 PM
-
This has probably been talked about before but I wanted to vent.
32 lane house. Our league takes up 30 lanes. Back in the day, most houses would leave that last pair open incase a league pair broke down. Not anymore. Open bowling on both lanes. Kids, bumpers, teenagers - all right against the leagues.
Owner doesn't want to turn away business. But the league can pay for the lane(s) in their linage and he will keep them off. Really? >:(
-
I understand your frustration... but I say just deal with it. If you can bowl with that distraction, you'll be a better bowler for it.
-
Tough situation from both sides. "Back in the day" there were hoards of league bowlers and the cost of doing business wasn't nearly the same as it is now, not to mention capital improvements to your facility are ridiculous.
At my center we try our best to keep a pair or at least one lane between leagues and open bowlers. Sometimes though you can't turn away money, and you have to do your best at explaining to the open bowlers lane courtesy. We also offer a set amount if the leagues would like to "rent" those lanes for the time period their league takes (never happens but we offer)
Even if you look at the percentages of league bowling income to open bowling income, it used to be 70/30 in favor of leagues "back in the day" Now you're probably looking at 50/50. I know in our center we used to have 2200+ league bowlers (24 lane center) which is HUGE. Now we have about 600. Times have changed and probably will never go back to the "good ole days"
-
One lane minimum.
If you have a league fill all but one pair its kinda sh!tty to fill the open pair like that. Its bad business if a pair breaks and you have to pull your open bowlers off mid game isnt it?
Say what you want but an almost full house for 36 weeks plus the concessions is worth more then what one or two lanes will bring you. I can assure you the 16 weeks of no leagues has a lot less income.
-
24 lane house. A few years ago, most nights all 24 were used by leagues, then the leagues were told they had to drop down to 20 teams as 4 lanes were to be reserved for open bowling.
-
Kidlost makes some good points.
"storm making it rain" : Would you be able to keep your doors open on open bowling alone? I would think most centers couldn't. I could be wrong. So why risk making the league bowlers upset. They are the ones there EVERY week.
There was a BP in my area that owned 4 centers. He was not a bowler and did NOTHING for his league bowlers. 3 of them are now closed and 1 is struggling under new ownership.
-
Risk upsetting the league bowlers? I've seen the exact situation where the open bowlers had more courtesy than the league bowlers. The league bowlers acted like they owned the place because they bowled in a league. If the twice a season that they MAY have to bowl next to open bowlers is going to upset a league bowler they need to get over themselves.
The only people that will really understand are people that own their own business.
-
Risk upsetting the league bowlers? I've seen the exact situation where the open bowlers had more courtesy than the league bowlers. The league bowlers acted like they owned the place because they bowled in a league. If the twice a season that they MAY have to bowl next to open bowlers is going to upset a league bowler they need to get over themselves.
The only people that will really understand are people that own their own business.
Agreed.
-
If you own a business are you going to upset more customers that are consistantly regulars for 36 weeks for 1 or 2 lanes in a 2.5 hours period?
What is one lane for 2.5 hours vs the 30 lanes that are bowling for 2.5 hours? What is that worth to a center?
Id love to see someone bowling great working on an 800 series or just a good game and have a group of kids put on the pair next to them. Because that is what we all want to bowl next too for 2.5 hours.
I've played in a golf tournament every year on an 18 hole course. The tournament has two squads and both are usually full. Or one squad is over full and one is almost full. Well the course started letting open golfers come through and in between sqauds go out on the course along with playing in on the afternoon squads. The first year this happen they said "hey, we didnt pay all of this money for the whole course for you to also allow people not in our tournament in". Course said they didnt want to turn away customers.
Same thing happen the following year.
Now the tournament is no longer held at that course. Guranteed full business for a Friday in spring up till 5pm is gone. Minimum 144 golfers. All to let a few extra golfers in and not turn away business.
1 or 2 lanes for 2.5 hours is not worth losing guranteed business.
-
Seems BOWLERS are saying that leagues are NO LONGER important to Bowling Lane Owners .. what we should do is go on strike (like a Union) for one winter season and see how important we are! The way things are going we are letting them hurt us ... problem with this approach is we would hurt the B/M pro shops .. I think they are being hurt already with discouraging leagues!
-
I bowled a second shift league and it wasn't as big as the other leagues. so after 9 pm, they all come in loud and ready to get drunk! I really don't mind at all, as long as they are a pair or two away, they can party all they want.
I especially don't mind when the group of college girls come too. ;D They've improved my scores and the scores of the guys as well...lol
-
You want to get a reaction from a bowling center bring up shortening a season to 32 or 30 weeks. That always gets a response.
-
As I said, the only people that will really understand are people that own their own business.
Most bowling centers struggle just to stay open. If they do something like filling empty lanes 3 or 4 nights a week it probably brings in enough money in a year to pay a month's electric bill or pay a part time employee's wages for half the year.
-
Once again I don't believe one lane or two for 2.5hrs is the issue. Lose teams in league and let me know which is more costly.
-
Let's look from another perspective.
Let's say I'm an open bowler, i come in to bowl and I'm put next to a league. The league bowlers are not nice to me and my group (for reasons of lane courtesy, I'm drinking some beers, or I'm being too loud, etc). When that happens what makes me want to even consider joining a league? If I'm new to bowling, I would be turned off by that type of treatment. And yes maybe it was just that league, but my perception might be, well all leagues must be like that. Doesn't help our game grow any does it?
Like i said in my center the situation only comes up once or twice a season. I'm not going to tell someone hey you can't bowl tonight when I have lanes available to sell. League bowling is the backbone of our business, but if we had no open bowling we would never get any new blood into leagues. Bowling is more about friendships and community than the actual sport at a league level, how can we grow if we aren't more inviting to the open bowler? The open bowler comes in, gets hooked, and joins a league at least thats the hope. I don't know any centers that have people plainly come in the door and ask to join a league (a couple here or there but not many) our jobs as bowlers and proprietors is to get those open bowlers to have fun and want to bowl a lot more.
-
Putting a party of young kids next to your league bowlers isn't smart and thats what recently happen. I don't blame 8 year olds kids for wanting to have fun and be kids. I also don't expect them to know lane courtesy. Its not fair to put your league bowlers in that situation.
If it was a tournament then is that a different issue?
-
There's tactful ways of handling it... If you start by being courteous to them they'll be courteous back... So if go to get your ball off the return at the same time they are, say something like "hey go ahead & roll your ball, I'll wait. We'll take turns..." That's an easy way of saying to them what the proper etiquette is without offending them or coming off like jerk... You might have to say it one or 2 times, but eventually they see your neighbor lane doing the same thing & they get the drift...
Otherwise, just wait til they've released their ball then go yourself... Next week you'll be bowling on the other end of the alley or 4 lanes down anyway...
-
Another solution is to approach the proprietor before league and discuss the matter. Maybe if he insists on selling the lanes anyway, then have him instruct the open bowlers as they purchase the lanes on the proper etiquette as a prerequisite to allowing them to bowl during that time.... Say, "normally we don't allow open bowling during league, but if you can follow these simple guidelines.... etc., etc... we'll let you bowl... otherwise wait til they're thru." Normal people won't have a problem with that... Not everyone's a real life jag like the non moderated forum persons... LoL!
-
An open bowler is a customer. A league bowler is a customer who bowls at the same time every week.
I play golf in a men's club at the same course every Saturday and Sunday morning. There is a sign up sheet out 2 weeks in advance. Men's club members have priority from daylight until 10 am until Wednesday. Then it is filled in with public play. We normally have 5-8 guys that play at first light. On the days we have less than 8 it would be ridiculous of us not to expect the pro shop to fill in our empty spots. If we didn't want to play with guys outside our club we should have filled the spots. And I play with guys that have been playing at the crack of dawn every weekend there isnt snow on the ground at the same course for over 20 years.
As for a tournament it's all in what was agreed upon between the tournament organizer and the center manager/proprietor. If the TD says he wants a buffer pair then he should expect his lineage to be priced accordingly. If not they should just understand that customers will be placed next to tournament bowlers, but it should be the last lanes given out.
-
This thread makes me sad. I have not one, but TWO bowling alleys with 36 or 40 lanes each (I forget exactly) within 4 miles of my house... AND NOT ONE SINGLE LEAGUE IN EITHER OF THEM! All open bowling all the time. :(
So you guys complaining about having to put up with open players next to your league can cry me a river... AT LEAST YOU HAVE A LEAGUE! If you like it, you best do everything you can to keep the league full. Recruit new members... fill the house every week. Otherwise, you might find your bowling alley has become just another kiddie entertainment center to babysit for lazy parents.
Open play must be profitable, so to those claiming "They NEED league bowlers"... don't be so sure.
-
This thread makes me sad. I have not one, but TWO bowling alleys with 36 or 40 lanes each (I forget exactly) within 4 miles of my house... AND NOT ONE SINGLE LEAGUE IN EITHER OF THEM! All open bowling all the time. :(
So you guys complaining about having to put up with open players next to your league can cry me a river... AT LEAST YOU HAVE A LEAGUE! If you like it, you best do everything you can to keep the league full. Recruit new members... fill the house every week. Otherwise, you might find your bowling alley has become just another kiddie entertainment center to babysit for lazy parents.
Open play must be profitable, so to those claiming "They NEED league bowlers"... don't be so sure.
You tell em 9er... The "manhood robbing" thread is open for bowlers like them... :o :P
-
This has probably been talked about before but I wanted to vent.
32 lane house. Our league takes up 30 lanes. Back in the day, most houses would leave that last pair open incase a league pair broke down. Not anymore. Open bowling on both lanes. Kids, bumpers, teenagers - all right against the leagues.
Owner doesn't want to turn away business. But the league can pay for the lane(s) in their linage and he will keep them off. Really? >:(
Find 2 more teams to fill the house. Problem solved!
-
I am on the fence about this. The last thing that I want to see is our sport going under due to lack of interest...I don't know what I'd do without my Sunday morning PBA telecasts and the prospect of being a PBA Tour bowler. So I find it important to recruit as much as possible, get more people in leagues, keep centers open and keep the sport alive. I think turning away open bowlers during league play would be detrimental in the long run.
However, it is horribly annoying when you are shooting a good game. When you're up on the approach, you take your first two steps and a ball wielding 3 year old screams past you and chucks their ball onto their bumper assisted lane and your shot goes all to hell.
Playing devil's advocate on my own thoughts, one could argue that having the 3 year old next to you is good practice to get you used to bowling with distractions. Or maybe to improve your control. If you see the kid run up, stop mid-swing, walk back, reset (the parents usually see this and hopefully tell their kid to calm down.) I used to have a coach who'd scare me mid-swing and helped me develop the ability to stop anywhere during my swing (for the most part) if needed, which has been helpful.
But at this point, the way things are evolving with bowling, we, as league bowlers, might have no other choice but adapt to the change. As stated earlier, as least we have a league to bowl in. I think we need to learn to adapt...as much as we don't want to...but at this point, I don't think we really have a choice.
-
I used to be in the camp that would complain about the open bowlers, get all wound up and let it affect my bowling. Today I say let them bowl and I just enjoy myself amazing my scores have went up aa I have learned not to let things bother me. In one Baker format tournament we bowl in they have a challenge that puts all of the bowlers on the lanes at the same time, really makes you focus on making your shot.
Mark
-
I used to be in the camp that would complain about the open bowlers, get all wound up and let it affect my bowling. Today I say let them bowl and I just enjoy myself amazing my scores have went up aa I have learned not to let things bother me. In one Baker format tournament we bowl in they have a challenge that puts all of the bowlers on the lanes at the same time, really makes you focus on making your shot.
Mark
I agree with this. I was the same way, but eventually realized that this is just an excuse. Bowling next to a 2 year old or a league team doesn't change your score. The more accommodating you are the better you are mentally.
-
I like what Monsterpike posted and agree that would be great and will work with most people/adults and older kids. When dealing with 4-8 little kids that isn't a resonable expectation. When they are having to use bumpers and the ball slide to bowl with your not going to get any kind of curtosy. If it was allowing other league bowlers, youth or adult I wouldn't have as much an issue.
People with the arguement of it is good practice I somewhat agree. League isn't practice for league. It is league. Rmember the sandbagging arguement when talking about using league to work on doing new things.
I know this has come up before when just open bowling. That is not the same in my opninon. League is a much different atmosphere.
So if going to Nationals this year along with allowing alcohol they made new rule changes to grow the sport and allow open bowlers of all ages to come in and bowl on available lanes during the tournament.
Would you have the same feeling then?
-
Your talking two completely different animals now, but if it was the same for everyone and there were an equal chance for everyone to draw the end pair I wouldn't have a problem with it. And it would never factor into the decision if I was going to bowl or not.
You're putting way too much into league being anything more than a social activity.
-
The point is simple. It doesn't happen every week.
If league is just a social activity why is there money involved? Sandbagging and all of the other complaints would be eliminated by taking money out of it. No cares of high average, high game, high series, ect. Eliminate brackets and eliminators as well. If it is just organized open bowling taking away prize money and shortening season would be a solution to saving and growing bowling. Every open bowler could join a league because it would cost less and run much shorter. No need for egos because its just for fun.
-
None of the add ons to your league have any significance to the proprietor of the bowling center. The proprietor doesn't care if you are bowling a league that cost $15 or $50 a week. More than likely they are getting the same amount. You are a customer of the bowling center just as the open bowler is. The goal of the proprietor is to service all of his customers.
All bowling is for fun. Some people are just fortunate enough to be able to earn a living doing it or being involved in it.
-
None of the add ons to your league have any significance to the proprietor of the bowling center. The proprietor doesn't care if you are bowling a league that cost $15 or $50 a week. More than likely they are getting the same amount. You are a customer of the bowling center just as the open bowler is. The goal of the proprietor is to service all of his customers.
All bowling is for fun. Some people are just fortunate enough to be able to earn a living doing it or being involved in it.
Someone GETS it.
As a side note our center offers leagues the opportunity to bowl less than our standard 35 week schedule. BUT they pay more lineage.
The other thing "most" league bowlers don't realize is we are reserving those lanes for you every week, oiling those lanes every week, etc. Open bowlers don't care if the lanes are oiled (most don't even know there is oil on them or the purpose of oil, and the vast majority actually think we are "waxing" the lane.
Again i'm not discounting the role of league bowling, in our center it truly is the backbone of everything we do. BUT we HAVE to cater to both segments, or we would not be able to operate.
-
The other thing "most" league bowlers don't realize is we are reserving those lanes for you every week, oiling those lanes every week, etc. Open bowlers don't care if the lanes are oiled (most don't even know there is oil on them or the purpose of oil, and the vast majority actually think we are "waxing" the lane.
Opps! Forgot to mention that league playing is GUARANTEED income!
-
Yes oil is also required to protect the lanes.
Interesting on Wednesday the league fills all but two lanes. On Thursday night 12 lanes are available and this isnt an issue because they typically cant fill more then 8 of them.
-
Always remember that THE PROPRIETOR IS ALWAYS RIGHT ... even when he/she is wrong.
-
The other thing "most" league bowlers don't realize is we are reserving those lanes for you every week, oiling those lanes every week, etc. Open bowlers don't care if the lanes are oiled (most don't even know there is oil on them or the purpose of oil, and the vast majority actually think we are "waxing" the lane.
Opps! Forgot to mention that league playing is GUARANTEED income!
Joe Falco in case you missed what I also stated here it is again.
"Again i'm not discounting the role of league bowling, in our center it truly is the backbone of everything we do. BUT we HAVE to cater to both segments, or we would not be able to operate."
-
Always remember that THE PROPRIETOR IS ALWAYS RIGHT ... even when he/she is wrong.
I don't know about at your center, but at ours THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT...even when he/she is wrong. (Basic customer service principles.)
-
So is there a market for a new bowling center that would market itself explicitly for league bowlers? Possibly even only open during league times or maybe a few practice segments? Obviously it would have to poach some league bowlers, are people that loyal to their current centers?
-
Ratt,
No, there isn't a market for that type of center. This is why every new place that opens caters in the opposite direction. A lot of the battle is that most everyone would like to bowl in a center that is shiny and new, and has a lane machine that costs as much as a car, but wants to pay the same for lineage as they did 20 years ago.
-
This is correct. League bowlers are already putting money into it very frequently, the last thing they want to do is pay more. Open bowlers don't go very much, most of the time it's a family thing, or a date, or a company party, so money isn't as much of an object. You may think that the consistency of the league bowler revenue is an incentive to keep them, but it's really not. You have to think that for each league bowler, it's most of the time 10-13 dollars for lineage depending on what part of the country you're in, but that's probably the average. Most 5 man leagues last about 3 hours. People will buy beer, food, etc, so I'd estimate an average take at 20-25 bucks over 3 hours per league bowler. How long does it take them to make that on an open bowler? 1 hour. 5 bucks for a game, 5 bucks for shoe rental, some beer and food and you're there, this is before they decide to bowl another game.
So essentially, the center can make on 1 open bowler in 1 hour the same amount they make off a league bowler over 3 hours ON AVERAGE. This is all with less effort. Open bowlers don't notice whether the shot is "fresh" or not. They don't expect everything for free because they're league bowlers. League bowlers already get a pretty good deal on bowling, usually get discounts or kickbacks, but it's never good enough. This is why it kills me how much whining and complaining goes on when the center wants to raise lineage a QUARTER to cover their increasing costs.
Ratt,
No, there isn't a market for that type of center. This is why every new place that opens caters in the opposite direction. A lot of the battle is that most everyone would like to bowl in a center that is shiny and new, and has a lane machine that costs as much as a car, but wants to pay the same for lineage as they did 20 years ago.
-
Ratt,
No, there isn't a market for that type of center. This is why every new place that opens caters in the opposite direction. A lot of the battle is that most everyone would like to bowl in a center that is shiny and new, and has a lane machine that costs as much as a car, but wants to pay the same for lineage as they did 20 years ago.
That is very nicely put.
-
I had to ask because of the press releases I've seen about Boutique bowling centers like Brooklyn Bowl. It's hard to accept that there is only one way to do things anymore.
-
Brooklyn Bowl has some leagues. $125/player for 10 week session, 4 on a team, 2 teams per lane, 2 games a night.
-
This is correct. League bowlers are already putting money into it very frequently, the last thing they want to do is pay more. Open bowlers don't go very much, most of the time it's a family thing, or a date, or a company party, so money isn't as much of an object. You may think that the consistency of the league bowler revenue is an incentive to keep them, but it's really not. You have to think that for each league bowler, it's most of the time 10-13 dollars for lineage depending on what part of the country you're in, but that's probably the average. Most 5 man leagues last about 3 hours. People will buy beer, food, etc, so I'd estimate an average take at 20-25 bucks over 3 hours per league bowler. How long does it take them to make that on an open bowler? 1 hour. 5 bucks for a game, 5 bucks for shoe rental, some beer and food and you're there, this is before they decide to bowl another game.
So essentially, the center can make on 1 open bowler in 1 hour the same amount they make off a league bowler over 3 hours ON AVERAGE. This is all with less effort. Open bowlers don't notice whether the shot is "fresh" or not. They don't expect everything for free because they're league bowlers. League bowlers already get a pretty good deal on bowling, usually get discounts or kickbacks, but it's never good enough. This is why it kills me how much whining and complaining goes on when the center wants to raise lineage a QUARTER to cover their increasing costs.
Ratt,
No, there isn't a market for that type of center. This is why every new place that opens caters in the opposite direction. A lot of the battle is that most everyone would like to bowl in a center that is shiny and new, and has a lane machine that costs as much as a car, but wants to pay the same for lineage as they did 20 years ago.
Good points from the proprietor point of view (my folks had a bowling alley, so I've been there). On the flip side, for a league bowler it's a commitment that affects their budget. A bowler can modestly spend $100 a month on league. Doesn't sound like much, but I've known a lot of league bowlers that didn't make a lot of money. $100 could be a car payment for them. They feel that for that kind of financial commitment on their part, the center should treat them better than the occasional rec bowler / birthday party kids. Unfortunately, many fail to consider the house doesn't see half of that money since it's used for prize fund/league expenses.
For the recreational bowler, if you have enough population to draw from, dropping $50 or more for one night every couple of months is much less of an issue. Plus, they don't care about score or the playing surface, they just want to cut loose and have a good time.
So I can see, and have been on both sides of the issue. It's tough because open bowling can be more profitable, but if something better comes along there is no loyalty. League bowlers are generally more loyal, but less profitable.