Author Topic: What the pro's use (Read 3095 times)

Jeffrevs · « **on:** January 30, 2005, 09:52:29 PM »

OK....thinking about yesterdays telecast....watching DeVaney switch from the MoRich T/A to the Classic Zone.....got me to thinking...

We all know that Track and MoRich make great stuff, strong asymetrical stuff for the most part. But, ..... if it's that great, why don't we see a lot more pros using their stuff ? (and this is NOT a knock on these 2 companies...they are just THE strong asymetrical ball makers.)

Seriously, ...how many tv finals have you seen w/ Track stuff? A few,(WRW) ...but not that many. Only 2 that I can recall w/ MoRich,...Wiseman won w/ a Ravage, and Devaney threw 2 frames w/ the T/A.....

Why is this....why do you see pros, for the most part, throwing symetrical, or weak asymetrical equipment, ...and you don't see them throwing strong asym stuff?

Track has such a big following, especially here on this site, and of course they make great stuff, ...but you just don't see it that often on TV. MoRich is the same....albeit much smaller than Track, ....but....strong asym stuff just doesn't seem popular w/ the pros. WHY NOT ?

Thoughts?
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JEFF
"what, by the time I get back..they won't be dead anymore ?.

Edited on 1/31/2005 6:49 AM

Jeffrevs · « **Reply #16 on:** January 31, 2005, 10:54:25 AM »

no hijack at all JS ...no problem...you're right....that was NOT the ball for that condition,...
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JEFF
"what, by the time I get back..they won't be dead anymore ?.

DP3 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 31, 2005, 10:55:16 AM »

I think it has more of the fact to do with Track and Morich core/cover combinations being so dramatically dynamic that they cater more to the average league bowler on softer conditions and guys without the mega high revarates. The average revrate on tour is in the 420 range with a speed around 17-19mph while the average league bowler's revrate is around 250 with a speed of around 14-15mph.

A drastic ball reaction is not needed by the pros because that will not smoothen out the condition, it'll just make playing the lanes hell. Why do you think that when they use this high powered equipment from their respective companies that it's either:

A) too over under
B) drilled to minimize flare with more hook/set and forward roll drillings
C) factory finish taken off and a smooth surface applied to read the condition better

It's not the balls or companies themselves, it's the conditions that they see week in and week out. I've had collegiate tournaments, local tournaments, and practices on every PBA Pattern, and some balls and core/cover combinations(with high dynamics) are just not condusive to the PBA Patterns.
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-DP3

Jeffrevs · « **Reply #18 on:** January 31, 2005, 10:57:35 AM »

DP...great post...and I agree...

but....Wiseman won w/ the Ravage ...and it his ball reaction was IT that day....I know...it's only one example, but at least ...we HAVE an example

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JEFF
"what, by the time I get back..they won't be dead anymore ?.

J_Mac · « **Reply #19 on:** January 31, 2005, 11:07:51 AM »

quote:
quote:
Most companies will really lean on their guys to throw the newest release on tv. Brunswick has always been very lenient with their guys, and it is not uncommon to see guys like Parker, and Barnes when he was with them, throwing mid priced balls, or even discontinued equipment.

Based on how many times Jason Couch has thrown the V2 Sanded, Particle, and Pearl the last few years, it looks like Ebonite may be very lenient also, although he hasn't thrown those balls this winter.

Jason CAN'T throw the latest and greatest balls from Ebonite. He actually over powers a lot of cores that Ebonite makes. I overheard this at a recent Ebonite demo days I attended.
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Everyone is entitled to be stupid but you're abusing the privilege.

DP3 · « **Reply #20 on:** January 31, 2005, 11:32:55 AM »

Yes Jeff he won with the Ravage but look what he did to it to get that reaction.

He took the surface down to 2000 smooth to get it reading early and smooth the backend. Plus he had it drilled pin high over the fingers, with the C.G swung way out and the mass bias past the VAL to promote forward roll at the breakpoint. I've seen Danny throw other Morich stuff over the summer including a Ravage, Mayhem and Total at regionals and a Ravage with any other drilling and surface prep is a way different reaction than the Ravage he used that day. That win was the case of a "niche" ball set up for a specific reaction matching up well with the pattern.
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-DP3

Jeffrevs · « **Reply #21 on:** January 31, 2005, 12:43:41 PM »

quote:
Yes Jeff he won with the Ravage but look what he did to it to get that reaction.

He took the surface down to 2000 smooth to get it reading early and smooth the backend. Plus he had it drilled pin high over the fingers, with the C.G swung way out and the mass bias past the VAL to promote forward roll at the breakpoint.

Ok ...and the difference between that type of drill and other drills on symetrical balls for the pros is

Isnt' that very typical of a drill for a pro ?

quote:
I've seen Danny throw other Morich stuff over the summer including a Ravage, Mayhem and Total at regionals and a Ravage with any other drilling and surface prep is a way different reaction than the Ravage he used that day. That win was the case of a "niche" ball set up for a specific reaction matching up well with the pattern.

Isn't that what they do all week, every week though ? Don't most of the pros drill up 2 or so of a certain ball...pin up, pin down...shined, not so shined, etc, etc?
--------------------
JEFF
"what, by the time I get back..they won't be dead anymore ?.

khamûl · « **Reply #22 on:** February 01, 2005, 12:04:32 AM »

some rather scattered thoughts...

quote:
Yes Jeff he won with the Ravage but look what he did to it to get that reaction.

He took the surface down to 2000 smooth to get it reading early and smooth the backend. Plus he had it drilled pin high over the fingers, with the C.G swung way out and the mass bias past the VAL to promote forward roll at the breakpoint. I've seen Danny throw other Morich stuff over the summer including a Ravage, Mayhem and Total at regionals and a Ravage with any other drilling and surface prep is a way different reaction than the Ravage he used that day. That win was the case of a "niche" ball set up for a specific reaction matching up well with the pattern.

DP3,

since when do you not drill up a ball for a certain reaction?

the Rav DW was throwing on the show was an inch-and-a-half over the midline, not way over the fingers. he used similar layouts all week at Bowlero in mostly mayhems & TAs as well as the Rav. of course he went with the drilling and cover match that worked best for the show!

...of course, the other side of the coin was when AMF went shopping in St Louis, he made their stuff look real good, lol.

Devaneys TA was drilled to rev way too late for the condition with the surface that was on it (pin up near the val with a later revving psa). He would have made a TA with earlier rolling layout (similar to what was in his CZ- pin under the bridge with a big psa kick) look much better.

for that matter, since when is a CZ considered to be a weak MB ball? (jeffrevs...?) there haven't been too many CZ's used this year, has there?

...also, has anyone tracked the total number of strike balls thrown on the show and the actual % of what type of core is used? i have the number at 53.125% symmetrical before drilling and 46.875% some asymmetry in the initial design (12.5% mild psa enhancement, 20.83% moderate enhancement & 13.54% strong psa designs)...

food for thought

.

Jeffrevs · « **Reply #23 on:** February 01, 2005, 05:09:42 AM »

quote:

for that matter, since when is a CZ considered to be a weak MB ball? (jeffrevs...?) there haven't been too many CZ's used this year, has there?

To be honest, I've never payed attention to it,.I guess it's stronger than I realized, ...just saw the numbers....not as fast as a spin time, but asym diff is high....true......thanks.......
--------------------
JEFF
"what, by the time I get back..they won't be dead anymore ?.

Edited on 2/1/2005 6:12 AM

michelle · « **Reply #24 on:** February 01, 2005, 05:59:51 AM »

quote:
some rather scattered thoughts...

quote:
Yes Jeff he won with the Ravage but look what he did to it to get that reaction.

He took the surface down to 2000 smooth to get it reading early and smooth the backend. Plus he had it drilled pin high over the fingers, with the C.G swung way out and the mass bias past the VAL to promote forward roll at the breakpoint. I've seen Danny throw other Morich stuff over the summer including a Ravage, Mayhem and Total at regionals and a Ravage with any other drilling and surface prep is a way different reaction than the Ravage he used that day. That win was the case of a "niche" ball set up for a specific reaction matching up well with the pattern.

DP3,

since when do you not drill up a ball for a certain reaction?

the Rav DW was throwing on the show was an inch-and-a-half over the midline, not way over the fingers. he used similar layouts all week at Bowlero in mostly mayhems & TAs as well as the Rav. of course he went with the drilling and cover match that worked best for the show!

I think the point that DP3 was attempting to make is that the ball was set up for that very specific condition...it probably would be a rare occasion to see it set up like that every week.

Contrast that with the league bowler that sets just about everything up as 5x3 or 4x4 with the pin next to the ring finger. Their adjustments often then come by matching surface as opposed to layout...

Even with my limited stab at national events, I have stuff that is set up in a way that it may never come out of the bag again unless I see that very specific condition. You learn very quickly that less is more. Pin over the middle finger is sometimes a strong position

DP3 · « **Reply #25 on:** February 01, 2005, 09:15:25 AM »

That's exactly what I was getting at. Thanks for pointing that out because I'm 100% positive I wouldn't have reiterated my original topic in your exact words without getting a little fried out about what it was I was trying to explain.
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-DP3

Jeffrevs · « **Reply #26 on:** February 01, 2005, 09:26:09 AM »

quote:

I think the point that DP3 was attempting to make is that the ball was set up for that very specific condition...it probably would be a rare occasion to see it set up like that every week.

I don't know....DW can throw a strong ball,...wouldn't any of his equipment be tamed to a certain extent ? Especially stronger stuff ?

I guess what I'm getting at , is that I don't think that Ravage was THAT unique of a situation or that much different than anything else anyone else does during a tourney week....

this from 1revwonder kind of confirms that....

quote:
the Rav DW was throwing on the show was an inch-and-a-half over the midline, not way over the fingers. he used similar layouts all week at Bowlero in mostly mayhems & TAs as well as the Rav. of course he went with the drilling and cover match that worked best for the show!

--------------------
JEFF
"what, by the time I get back..they won't be dead anymore ?.

Edited on 2/1/2005 10:24 AM

Phillip Marlowe · « **Reply #27 on:** February 01, 2005, 09:46:37 AM »

Go back to the beginning. These guys have rev rates that are vastly greater than most of us and they are more consistent. They often try to reduce the influence of the core to give them a more predictable reaction and less flare. For most, predictability is more important than raw reaction -- reaction which is largely governed by the coverstock (as the companies remind us). That is why the drillings they use on flattish conditions are generally not something that the average bowler can or should ever use -- we need stronger, longer drills that help us get reactions and which play to the more forgiving lanes on which we tend to bowl. In addition, very few of us bowl on lanes with the violent backend reactions that the pros bowl on regularly -- leading to a vicious over/under if you don't control speed and angle and have a predictable ball reaction.

So what may seem to be a mild drilling for us, may well be a very aggressive drilling given their rev rates, speed control and the strong backends. Last year, for example, the pros were not only largely throwing "weaker" cores, but "weaker" or very polished "stronger" (i.e., weaker) shells as well. Just something to think about.
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"I don't mind if you don't like my manners. I don't like them myself. They're pretty bad. I grieve over them on long winter evenings."

SKC · « **Reply #28 on:** February 01, 2005, 09:51:12 AM »

I know this comes a bit late in this thread..

But just a thought..

But how bout Mika K?

I love Brunswick and all, and dig Mika too, but i certainly found it somewhat surprising that since making the show 7 times, winning 2 titles and collecting several awards in 2003/2004, while throwing Ebonite, would switch to Big B the following year.. And he'd been slinging Ebonite in ages..

Had to be something else than just better ballreactions..

Edited on 2/1/2005 10:50 AM

Author Topic: What the pro's use (Read 3095 times)

Jeffrevs

What the pro's use

Jeffrevs

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DP3

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Jeffrevs

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J_Mac

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DP3

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Jeffrevs

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khamûl

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Jeffrevs

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michelle

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DP3

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Jeffrevs

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Phillip Marlowe

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SKC

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