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Author Topic: Leaving 10 pins  (Read 18193 times)

milorafferty

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Leaving 10 pins
« on: September 13, 2013, 12:24:02 PM »
Why do a some folks here blame the ball for leaving the 10?

I see it in a lot of threads talking about balls, comments like "it sure leaves a lot of 10 pins".

Do these guys really think the ball alone is responsible for their inability to carry?
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dmonroe814

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2013, 12:35:47 PM »
Of course they blame the ball.  I couldn't possibly their fault.
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spmcgivern

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2013, 12:36:06 PM »
yes
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blesseddad

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2013, 01:03:55 PM »
Improper matchups between ball/cover/core/pattern/layout cause the wrong entry angle and thus, leave more 10 pins...
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scrub49

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2013, 01:15:43 PM »
Agree with blesseddad  while using an 2 piece Black-U-Dot my third game I left 8 ten pins one four-nine and the bucket had one strike. The game before started with the first 7 and shot an 240 plus game. To be honest I moved 2 boards deeper after 2nd game. Yes both games with same ball.
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Good Times Good Times

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2013, 01:53:39 PM »
Milo, I think what you're hinting at is an absolute lack of education w/regards to ball motion and a lack of understanding (in some cases a lack of abilty to understand) of what pin carry is telling you.  Pin carry tells a story about what is happening on the pattern and what the ball is doing when it enters the pocket.  For an 8 pin, I'll concede a tap, but there's always a reason for a 10. 

When it gets down to it, the sad part is that some DO believe it is the BALL that leaves 10 pins.  We can discern a lot about a bowler based on comments such as this.  What those bowlers fail to realize is that the pins are no respecter of a specific ball. 

I suppose "they" want a ball that "has less 10 pins IN it"?   :-\  :-\
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milorafferty

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2013, 01:58:05 PM »
Bingo. Although I disagree about the 8 pin.  ;D



Quote from: Good Times Good Times on September 13, 2013, 01:53:39 PM
Milo, I think what you're hinting at is an absolute lack of education w/regards to ball motion and a lack of understanding (in some cases a lack of abilty to understand) of what pin carry is telling you.  Pin carry tells a story about what is happening on the pattern and what the ball is doing when it enters the pocket.  For an 8 pin, I'll concede a tap, but there's always a reason for a 10. 

When it gets down to it, the sad part is that some DO believe it is the BALL that leaves 10 pins.  We can discern a lot about a bowler based on comments such as this.  What those bowlers fail to realize is that the pins are no respecter of a specific ball. 

I suppose "they" want a ball that "has less 10 pins IN it"?   :-\  :-\
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blesseddad

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2013, 04:00:45 PM »
Quote from: milorafferty on September 13, 2013, 01:58:05 PM
Bingo. Although I disagree about the 8 pin.  ;D



Quote from: Good Times Good Times on September 13, 2013, 01:53:39 PM
Milo, I think what you're hinting at is an absolute lack of education w/regards to ball motion and a lack of understanding (in some cases a lack of abilty to understand) of what pin carry is telling you.  Pin carry tells a story about what is happening on the pattern and what the ball is doing when it enters the pocket.  For an 8 pin, I'll concede a tap, but there's always a reason for a 10. 

When it gets down to it, the sad part is that some DO believe it is the BALL that leaves 10 pins.  We can discern a lot about a bowler based on comments such as this.  What those bowlers fail to realize is that the pins are no respecter of a specific ball. 

I suppose "they" want a ball that "has less 10 pins IN it"?   :-\  :-\

Exactly. there is a reason for every leave, whether we recognize it or not...

As for 8's/9's, if you have a system like my home center, the camera replay of the ball going through the pins can be a huge tool. Does the ball stop and set? Does it deflect? Does it stay true to the entry angle? Does it have too much continuation? Many questions to be answered...Tap or no tap, still reasons why...
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milorafferty

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2013, 04:09:58 PM »
That's how I see it as well. I went to the BTM Super School a few years back when it was in Middletown, Ohio.

One of the days we had a class room session with Mark Robey(Pro Shop owner in Detroit if I remember correctly). He had several videos showing exactly why back row pins are left. His big thing was to watch for the "wiggle" as the ball goes through the pins. For a right hander, the ball hits the one pin and deflects slightly right, then the three pins and deflects slightly left, five pin deflect right and 9 pin deflect left. If you watch the ball, it actually does wiggle going through the pins and rolls off the center of the deck on a perfect shot.

Quote from: blesseddad on September 13, 2013, 04:00:45 PM
Exactly. there is a reason for every leave, whether we recognize it or not...

As for 8's/9's, if you have a system like my home center, the camera replay of the ball going through the pins can be a huge tool. Does the ball stop and set? Does it deflect? Does it stay true to the entry angle? Does it have too much continuation? Many questions to be answered...Tap or no tap, still reasons why...
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LuckyLefty

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2013, 05:58:27 PM »
So often the move to stop 7 pins for me a lefty is to move slightly left and maybe get the hand a little more direct!  It happened last night.  Strike one lane 7 pin the other strike then 7, then a move slightly left and more direct 4 bagger.  (should have been 8 with brains applied or at least 6!).

It seems so often the ball on many league conitions is a half board light and too much on the adjoining pin of the pocket.  2 for me and 3 pin for you.

Regards,

Luckylefty
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bradl

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2013, 06:12:25 PM »
Quote from: LuckyLefty on September 13, 2013, 05:58:27 PM
So often the move to stop 7 pins for me a lefty is to move slightly left and maybe get the hand a little more direct!  It happened last night.  Strike one lane 7 pin the other strike then 7, then a move slightly left and more direct 4 bagger.  (should have been 8 with brains applied or at least 6!).

It seems so often the ball on many league conitions is a half board light and too much on the adjoining pin of the pocket.  2 for me and 3 pin for you.

Regards,

Luckylefty

Interesting.. In juniors and college, I was always taught 7up:

For righties, 7up, 10 back: stick a 10 pin, move back roughly half an inch to change the entry angle. For 7 pins, move up half an inch.

Lefties need to reverse that. 7 pins, move back half an inch. 10 pins, move up half an inch.

Agreed totally about entry angle, but going more direct may not be the key there yet, because you already have a good line to the pocket; it is just that the ball isn't finishing in a strong position. If I leave something else in the back row, I'd stay there until something along with it is left (read: 4 pin, 6 pin), then consider the move left or right, or ball down.

BL.
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LuckyLefty

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2013, 06:30:38 PM »
BradL,

These college bowling stars get all the info.  And in Juniors I quit keggling with my Rubber ball at age 11 due to my mangled right thumb and missed all the coaching!  Drat.  I will remember that rule and try to apply it now as it makes sense for the 7.

Probably my idea is more applicable to the left where disappearing head oil on a day where I am alone is at a much slower pace than on the right!  But moving back would let me leave my hand position alone!  Ahhhhh! 

I'm still confused on the 10 pin for me and 7 pin for you(not that I leave many) but what is going on with 7 UP  rule?  (revised) Please explain....

Thanks....

Regards,

Luckylefty

« Last Edit: September 14, 2013, 07:31:59 AM by LuckyLefty »
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scotts33

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2013, 07:51:40 PM »
Quote
For righties, 7up, 10 back: stick a 10 pin, move back roughly half an inch to change the entry angle. For 7 pins, move up half an inch.

How is this applicable?  The moving back and moving up assumes that you will be sliding/stopping at the same place and feed the ball into the lane up and back.  I argue that I don't care if you move up 6"s or back 6"s that you will wind up sliding in the same place and therefore feed the ball into the lane in the same place  Try it and post your shot and see where you wind up.  I say it will be within a few inches whether up or back.  So, that kills this discussion.  Now if you can loft it further or set it down shorter then yes the discussion continues but you better ne a way higher skilled bowler than the majority to do this on call.  Side to side is the real adjustment along with ball speed and rotation.

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Scott

charlest

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2013, 09:15:54 AM »
Quote from: scotts33 on September 13, 2013, 07:51:40 PM
Quote
For righties, 7up, 10 back: stick a 10 pin, move back roughly half an inch to change the entry angle. For 7 pins, move up half an inch.

How is this applicable?  The moving back and moving up assumes that you will be sliding/stopping at the same place and feed the ball into the lane up and back.  I argue that I don't care if you move up 6"s or back 6"s that you will wind up sliding in the same place and therefore feed the ball into the lane in the same place  Try it and post your shot and see where you wind up.  I say it will be within a few inches whether up or back.  So, that kills this discussion.  Now if you can loft it further or set it down shorter then yes the discussion continues but you better ne a way higher skilled bowler than the majority to do this on call.  Side to side is the real adjustment along with ball speed and rotation.


Scott,

I think the problem here (moving up a little or back a little on the approach) is that this provides different changes to people depending on their physical game. By this I mean, if you move some people back 6" on the approach, they will, UNCONSCIOUSLY or SUBCONSCIOUSLY, walk faster and, like you say, finish at the same spot. As a result they will throw the ball slightly faster.

Meanwhile other people will keep the same body/feet speed and wind up 6" further behind the foul line than they normally do. This results in the ball hooking sooner, because they are rolling it longer but NOT faster.

Similarly for people starting their approach 6" further up.The results differ for different people, depending on their body's reaction. We are all different.

When I start 6" further back, my body tends to want to finish at the same spot; so I tend to walk faster with slightly longer steps. That's one way I get more speed on the ball.
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mainzer

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2013, 10:17:36 AM »
Quote from: blesseddad on September 13, 2013, 01:03:55 PM
Improper matchups between ball/cover/core/pattern/layout cause the wrong entry angle and thus, leave more 10 pins...

then the bowler needs to make adjustments, their are no bad balls anymore.
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