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Author Topic: Leaving 10 pins  (Read 18176 times)

milorafferty

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Leaving 10 pins
« on: September 13, 2013, 12:24:02 PM »
Why do a some folks here blame the ball for leaving the 10?

I see it in a lot of threads talking about balls, comments like "it sure leaves a lot of 10 pins".

Do these guys really think the ball alone is responsible for their inability to carry?
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northface28

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2013, 02:58:53 PM »
Quote from: mainzer on September 14, 2013, 10:17:36 AM
Quote from: blesseddad on September 13, 2013, 01:03:55 PM
Improper matchups between ball/cover/core/pattern/layout cause the wrong entry angle and thus, leave more 10 pins...

then the bowler needs to make adjustments, their are no bad balls anymore.

Just stop, there are bad balls. And before you start the whole "matchup" song and dance, I get that, I do. However, if you have to carry one ball around for an extended period of time for that one rare occasion where it will work, its a bad ball.
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swingset

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2013, 06:06:27 PM »
Quote from: northface28 on September 14, 2013, 02:58:53 PM
Quote from: mainzer on September 14, 2013, 10:17:36 AM
Quote from: blesseddad on September 13, 2013, 01:03:55 PM
Improper matchups between ball/cover/core/pattern/layout cause the wrong entry angle and thus, leave more 10 pins...

then the bowler needs to make adjustments, their are no bad balls anymore.

Just stop, there are bad balls. And before you start the whole "matchup" song and dance, I get that, I do. However, if you have to carry one ball around for an extended period of time for that one rare occasion where it will work, its a bad ball.

There are very very few bad balls. There are mismatches, and sorry you can't accept it. Show me a ball you can't make work on but a few conditions, and I'll show you 20 guys who make it work all the time. You leave 10's with ball X? Guy next to you will roll 300's with it.

It's subjective, and the OP has a good point. Carry is much more of an issue of the player's game than the ball.

9 times out of 10 when people bemoan a ball that doesn't carry well, they're not adjusting or changing the entry angle, spin, target line or speed - all of which can change and improve a ball's carry and the carry that changes 10's hanging out.
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blesseddad

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2013, 08:31:15 PM »
My home house has 1+ yr old SPL overlays and what I would call a medium volume shot at 42' in length. 95% of the 10's left in the house are due to one of three factors:
1. Hook monsters that have used up all their energy in the front (Wrong piece, wrong match-up, wrong zone or wrong surface)
2. Too much ball speed (Again, wrong piece, wrong surface or wrong zone ending in weak entry angle) Last time I checked, a ball has to slow down to hook and when it does not slow down, you have the wrong angle.
3. Not strong enough rolling ball and flat entry angle (AGAIN, wrong piece, wrong matchup, wrong zone or wrong surface)

Why do you think the pro shops are selling so many different pieces to combat all patterns, etc? Bowlers do't walk through the doors with 10+ ball arsenals because they like the colors...they are trying to match up for the best carry (best entry angle, best overall ball read on the lanes, best ball read front to back,  best ball motion and path, etc).
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northface28

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2013, 11:05:23 PM »
Quote from: swingset on September 14, 2013, 06:06:27 PM
Quote from: northface28 on September 14, 2013, 02:58:53 PM
Quote from: mainzer on September 14, 2013, 10:17:36 AM
Quote from: blesseddad on September 13, 2013, 01:03:55 PM
Improper matchups between ball/cover/core/pattern/layout cause the wrong entry angle and thus, leave more 10 pins...

then the bowler needs to make adjustments, their are no bad balls anymore.

Just stop, there are bad balls. And before you start the whole "matchup" song and dance, I get that, I do. However, if you have to carry one ball around for an extended period of time for that one rare occasion where it will work, its a bad ball.

There are very very few bad balls. There are mismatches, and sorry you can't accept it. Show me a ball you can't make work on but a few conditions, and I'll show you 20 guys who make it work all the time. You leave 10's with ball X? Guy next to you will roll 300's with it.

It's subjective, and the OP has a good point. Carry is much more of an issue of the player's game than the ball.

9 times out of 10 when people bemoan a ball that doesn't carry well, they're not adjusting or changing the entry angle, spin, target line or speed - all of which can change and improve a ball's carry and the carry that changes 10's hanging out.

Anyway, if its a "mismatch" more often than not, its a bad ball for that particular player. Period, point blank. Sorry, you can't accept it.

There's other variables for not carrying the 10, carrydown,  bad rack, or pins off spot. Among other things.

Some of you guys are quick to blame the bowler. Sometimes, it is the ball. But its par for the course here, some guys are so smart here, but have a hard time booking 210 on the oh so easy "THS". Not good enough to repeat on house, but experts on ball motion. Only on ballreviews.com.
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Strider

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2013, 11:41:33 PM »
I had one ball that was a 10 pin machine (Dynothane Thing).  I tried 2 different drillings and a multitude of surfaces and it left 10's with the best of them.  I'm sure for a majority of people there were no issues, so for me it was a matchup problem, but dang it was frustrating.  I know the difference between a good pocket hit and one slightly behind the head pin, but no matter how the ball faced the pocket or the angle, the ball left 10's FAR more than average.  I finally gave up and sold it, but I was determined to make the ball work (although I eventually failed) because it seemed to read the lane (under multiple conditions) so well.  Maybe it rolled out or hook/set inches early (just a fraction too early to see by eye)?  Maybe that's why other balls I have carry far better than average - maybe they give me that precious extra few inches on the good side?
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scotts33

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2013, 11:48:52 PM »
Quote
I had one ball that was a 10 pin machine (Dynothane Thing).

And I loved that ball Geoff!  Shot a 300 with it gave it to a junior bowler who proceeded to shoot 300 with it.   ;D
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Scott

mainzer

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2013, 12:52:23 AM »
A bowling ball not matching with the player does not make a ball bad just makes that ball a bad choice.

NorthFace i will do the song and dance, their are no bad bowling balls just bad bowlers, to much  r and d goes into covers and cores. I used to blame equipment being bad when I was younger, when I finally accepted that the only thing wrong with the equipment was the guy throwing the ball my average went up 10 pins and my mental game improved dramatically.
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MainzerPower

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2013, 09:12:35 AM »
+1 Mainzer

I have balls that just don't work for me but give to a friend and he shoots lights out and vice versa. The only issue is I'm not smart enough to know if the ball will be a good match before I buy it. Lol

I own about 15 balls right now and have one that is still puzzling me. It happens
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avabob

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2013, 10:42:21 AM »
Only way to really explain 10 pins, and more important, how to minimize them is to start with the 6 pin and work back to the pocket.  10 leaves come when the 6 pin doesn't get the 10.  6 misses the 10 on the right.  Maybe it falls in the gutter maybe it goes right around the 10.  This happens because the 3 hits the 6 just a little off center toward the 5 pin rather than dead square toward the 10.  The 3 hits the 6 off center because the ball deflects too much into the 3 pushing it more backward rather than directly into the 6. 

Bottom line it is always deflection.  Deflection happens because the ball has lost rotational energy.  Entry angle per se is much less a factor because increased entry angle in and of itself doesn't change the amount of deflection, only the direction of the deflection. 

Best adjustment for 10 pins is often to make a move in.  This helps you find a bit more oil and delay the loss of energy
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blesseddad

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2013, 12:36:45 PM »
Quote from: avabob on September 15, 2013, 10:42:21 AM
Only way to really explain 10 pins, and more important, how to minimize them is to start with the 6 pin and work back to the pocket.  10 leaves come when the 6 pin doesn't get the 10.  6 misses the 10 on the right.  Maybe it falls in the gutter maybe it goes right around the 10.  This happens because the 3 hits the 6 just a little off center toward the 5 pin rather than dead square toward the 10.  The 3 hits the 6 off center because the ball deflects too much into the 3 pushing it more backward rather than directly into the 6. 

Bottom line it is always deflection.  Deflection happens because the ball has lost rotational energy.  Entry angle per se is much less a factor because increased entry angle in and of itself doesn't change the amount of deflection, only the direction of the deflection. 

Best adjustment for 10 pins is often to make a move in.  This helps you find a bit more oil and delay the loss of energy

+1

Let's simplify the whole thread: If you are leaving 10's, there is something wrong. It can be one of the countless symptoms mentioned above. Figure out what it was and the fix for that symptom. Problem solved...
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scotts33

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2013, 03:45:29 PM »
Quote
Best adjustment for 10 pins is often to make a move in.  This helps you find a bit more oil and delay the loss of energy

Yep exactly as Bob said side to side not up and back.  Good post Bob!
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Scott

avabob

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2013, 09:11:30 PM »
One other thing about carry.  Maybe it is just me, but over the years, when I am having carry problems, changing balls is the least effective remedy.  I have joked many times that when my carry is good I can throw anything in my bag, and when my carry is bad I could drill up the entire pro shop and not find the right piece of equipment.  Slight over statement, but it is about speed rev rate and roll pattern, things that usually aren't significantly altered by changing equipment
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LuckyLefty

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2013, 09:40:48 AM »
It could be the difference between the left and the right.

Our house which always starts very fresh and sparky always morphs into sloppy at the back.  I believe a too viscous Kegel Prodigy oil for our house humidity leaving what for many on the left even very good bowlers call flat 7 city.  The move is almost always to the left with the feet and 1 board back left with the eyes to regain 10 in the pit!  In mid game 2.  Eventually often back where you started!

As to the 6 pin for a lefty or 4 for a righty.  I was flushing the hole or should I say striking or 9 ing every ball for about 2 games.  Unfortunately almost no doubles, sort of can you say strike 6 pin.  At one point I moved inside, bucket, then back 6 - 8.

Finally I remembered BradLs tip of moving up, immediately finally a 5 bagger with no 6 pins.  Oh my if this works next time I can't miss I expect about about 150 more pins for the night!  Yes, that many 6s....but it looked so good!

Thanks BradL.  I know this should be for the 10 for me but it worked!

REgards,

Luckylefty





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scotts33

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2013, 12:00:59 PM »
What does moving up or back do?
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Scott

bradl

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Re: Leaving 10 pins
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2013, 01:01:37 PM »
Quote from: scotts33 on October 01, 2013, 12:00:59 PM
What does moving up or back do?

It changes the entry angle of the ball into the pocket. What is happening when you are leaving 10 pins is that the ball is hitting the pocket a bit late, which when the 6 pin is hit, it either wraps around the ring of the 10, or lays flat in the channel. Same thing for the 7 pin for lefties. Moving up or back that half inch changes the entry angle.

Now, note that that is different from moving left or right, in the fact that adjusting left or right helps when your ball is hooking too early and hits the pocket high or light. If you're leaving ringing 10s or 7s, you are already standing in the right spot and you're lined up. no need to change that to take out the corner pin. Change the angle that the ball is hitting the pocket, and you're good. When you start to leave something else besides the corner pin (basically, anything *NOT* in the back row), then it is time to move left or right.

BL.
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