Author Topic: Leaving 10 pins (Read 18178 times)

milorafferty · « **on:** September 13, 2013, 12:24:02 PM »

Why do a some folks here blame the ball for leaving the 10?

I see it in a lot of threads talking about balls, comments like "it sure leaves a lot of 10 pins".

Do these guys really think the ball alone is responsible for their inability to carry?

scotts33 · « **Reply #31 on:** October 01, 2013, 01:37:37 PM »

How does it change the entry angle by moving up or back on the approach?

spmcgivern · « **Reply #32 on:** October 02, 2013, 07:54:45 AM »

Quote from: scotts33 on October 01, 2013, 01:37:37 PM

How does it change the entry angle by moving up or back on the approach?

I agree scotts33, moving up and back on the approach makes no sense to me. I am willing to bet those that do will end up in the same spot at the foul line anyway.

To change your entry angle, your BALL must get to the breakpoint at a different angle. This means moving laterally (left or right) on the approach.

Now, if I am leaving 10-pins, it is usually because my ball isn't getting into a roll (ring 10 usually) or my ball is rolling out (flat 10). Each case has a different solution. There isn't one fix for both.

Arone24 · « **Reply #33 on:** October 02, 2013, 08:25:20 AM »

I must be one the few that moving up and back works for the majority of the time. If I leave a ten I can move up 2 inches and go right back to carrying 9 times out of 10. If I move up too much I'll leave a 7.

Joe Cool · « **Reply #34 on:** October 02, 2013, 09:23:05 AM »

So playing off of this question, earlier this week I saw four 5-7-10s left on the same pair not all by the same bowler and on very different lines with different balls. There were also 5 light pocket 7-10s left (not as unusual, but noted because of the 5-7-10s). In general people bowled okay on the pair overall, but there were certainly some odd results at times.

I agree that the pins (single pins especially) tell a story and I use those all the time to adjust no just based on what I am seeing, but what is happening to others as well; however sometimes something isn't quite right either. 4 5-7-10s on the same pair? Seems a bit excessive for being decent bowlers on that pair.

avabob · « **Reply #35 on:** October 02, 2013, 02:45:22 PM »

5-7-10 pops up occasionally, but rarerly. Only time I have seen more than one has been when there is a off spot problem, usually one not noticeable from the front. We had a pair where I use to bowl league that would yield an average of 1 5-7-10 per night, always on the left lane.

bradl · « **Reply #36 on:** October 02, 2013, 06:32:16 PM »

Quote from: scotts33 on October 01, 2013, 01:37:37 PM

How does it change the entry angle by moving up or back on the approach?

I'm trying to remember what my coaches said back then. Keep in mind, this was 25 years ago.

Also, I should caveat this by saying that I am not talking about a 6" or full step back or forward on the approach. I'm talking maybe 1" or 2" at the most.

Now. As for how it changes the entry angle. With that small of a move, the ball, which should be on its same line to the pocket, should start its turn to face the pocket earlier or later (depending on if you moved up or back). This is slightly different from the ball checking up earlier due to carrydown, which you would have to adjust left or right to find the oil for your ball to push down to the breakpoint you are looking for. But the slight move up or back is sometimes all that is needed to change that entry angle.

Quote from: Arone24 on October 02, 2013, 08:25:20 AM

I must be one the few that moving up and back works for the majority of the time. If I leave a ten I can move up 2 inches and go right back to carrying 9 times out of 10. If I move up too much I'll leave a 7.

That's exactly how it is for me as well, but slightly opposite. If I leave a 7, I'll move up, and can carry it. If I leave a 10, I'll move back and can carry it. This is all assuming same line, same breakpoint. Once the ball checks up before the breakpoint, then I'd have to move left.

BL.

spmcgivern · « **Reply #37 on:** October 03, 2013, 10:11:38 AM »

Quote from: bradl on October 02, 2013, 06:32:16 PM

Quote from: scotts33 on October 01, 2013, 01:37:37 PM
How does it change the entry angle by moving up or back on the approach?

I'm trying to remember what my coaches said back then. Keep in mind, this was 25 years ago.

Also, I should caveat this by saying that I am not talking about a 6" or full step back or forward on the approach. I'm talking maybe 1" or 2" at the most.

Now. As for how it changes the entry angle. With that small of a move, the ball, which should be on its same line to the pocket, should start its turn to face the pocket earlier or later (depending on if you moved up or back). This is slightly different from the ball checking up earlier due to carrydown, which you would have to adjust left or right to find the oil for your ball to push down to the breakpoint you are looking for. But the slight move up or back is sometimes all that is needed to change that entry angle.

Quote from: Arone24 on October 02, 2013, 08:25:20 AM
I must be one the few that moving up and back works for the majority of the time. If I leave a ten I can move up 2 inches and go right back to carrying 9 times out of 10. If I move up too much I'll leave a 7.

That's exactly how it is for me as well, but slightly opposite. If I leave a 7, I'll move up, and can carry it. If I leave a 10, I'll move back and can carry it. This is all assuming same line, same breakpoint. Once the ball checks up before the breakpoint, then I'd have to move left.

BL.

Maybe I am just different. But I would love to do a Digitrax with someone to see what benefits can be made by moving up and down on the approach. I wonder if it is more psychological where moving forward may make you slow down a bit because you are "closer" to the foul line and the opposite for moving back.

But I also make 1/2 board left and right adjustments. Not always because I have to move, but just trying to stay ahead of larger adjustments. And people still call me crazy.

scotts33 · « **Reply #38 on:** October 03, 2013, 10:16:25 AM »

Quote

Maybe I am just different. But I would love to do a Digitrax with someone to see what benefits can be made by moving up and down on the approach. I wonder if it is more psychological where moving forward may make you slow down a bit because you are "closer" to the foul line and the opposite for moving back.

But I also make 1/2 board left and right adjustments. Not always because I have to move, but just trying to stay ahead of larger adjustments. And people still call me crazy.

Completely agree.

bradl · « **Reply #39 on:** October 03, 2013, 02:26:03 PM »

Quote from: spmcgivern on October 03, 2013, 10:11:38 AM

Maybe I am just different. But I would love to do a Digitrax with someone to see what benefits can be made by moving up and down on the approach. I wonder if it is more psychological where moving forward may make you slow down a bit because you are "closer" to the foul line and the opposite for moving back.

But I also make 1/2 board left and right adjustments. Not always because I have to move, but just trying to stay ahead of larger adjustments. And people still call me crazy.

Fair enough. But let's also keep in mind that for something like this, there isn't just one solution. A teammate of mine was taught as you do, which is 1/2 board adjustments for the corner pins. Both can work. It's just a matter of adjusting where the breakpoint will be further down the lane length-wise versus width-wise, and that change being ever so slight.

But like I said, there's more than one way to handle it, but it all comes down to which way are you more comfortable with.

BL.

spmcgivern · « **Reply #40 on:** October 07, 2013, 07:50:58 AM »

Quote from: bradl on October 03, 2013, 02:26:03 PM

Quote from: spmcgivern on October 03, 2013, 10:11:38 AM
Maybe I am just different. But I would love to do a Digitrax with someone to see what benefits can be made by moving up and down on the approach. I wonder if it is more psychological where moving forward may make you slow down a bit because you are "closer" to the foul line and the opposite for moving back.

But I also make 1/2 board left and right adjustments. Not always because I have to move, but just trying to stay ahead of larger adjustments. And people still call me crazy.

Fair enough. But let's also keep in mind that for something like this, there isn't just one solution. A teammate of mine was taught as you do, which is 1/2 board adjustments for the corner pins. Both can work. It's just a matter of adjusting where the breakpoint will be further down the lane length-wise versus width-wise, and that change being ever so slight.

But like I said, there's more than one way to handle it, but it all comes down to which way are you more comfortable with.

BL.

I agree in that bowling adjustments should work for a bowler. But to advise to bowlers that moving forward and backward on the approach 1/2" as a way to adjust the breakpoint isn't right. It is just bad teaching in my mind.

Greazygeo · « **Reply #41 on:** October 07, 2013, 08:52:02 AM »

Quote from: spmcgivern on October 07, 2013, 07:50:58 AM

I agree in that bowling adjustments should work for a bowler. But to advise to bowlers that moving forward and backward on the approach 1/2" as a way to adjust the breakpoint isn't right. It is just bad teaching in my mind.

But it works so how is it not right? I move forward/ backward as well as half board moves. Just depends on what I am seeing.

ithinkican · « **Reply #42 on:** October 07, 2013, 09:26:11 AM »

TO be honest with you, YES! I carry a 230 average. I have a 420 rev rate. I have a 30 degree axis tilt with a 4&7/8" right and 1/8" up PAP. I leave a tremendous amount of ten pins with hammer and ebonite bowling balls. I am not saying they are bad companies, I find hammer to have very versatile smooth hooking balls but the problem I have with them is the ten pins so they are not my company of choice. That includes hammer and ebonite balls of all levels and layouts with the exception of the cyclone and black taboo. My storm, dv8, track, and columbia balls work just as well as my hammer balls but leave me with nearly 1/3 the number of ten pins of my hammer and ebonite equipment. I should have easily had a 900 series multiple nights with my taboo original but the 10 pin didnt want to cooperate and it stayed rebellious. I did shoot 2 800s with it. If i missed my BP by 2 boards right I left ten pins. Most storm balls dont give me this problem with the exception to the sync and tropical balls. my highest series is actually with my storm frantic. I made a mistake on the 12th ball in game one and left an 8 pins in game 2 then made two errors the last game but the ball helped me out and I finished the night with a 292 average. So I have to say that for the most part the bowler is the reason for the ten pins but I have to agree that some companies do not have the information or chemistry to develop the manifolds and coverstocks to compete with storm, brunswick, and roto grip.

spmcgivern · « **Reply #43 on:** October 07, 2013, 12:44:32 PM »

Quote from: Greazygeo on October 07, 2013, 08:52:02 AM

But it works so how is it not right? I move forward/ backward as well as half board moves. Just depends on what I am seeing.

If I do a rain dance and it starts raining, does that mean it works?

People, you are saying a 1/2" move forward or back CHANGES your breakpoint/entry angle? Do me a favor, next time you go bowl and make a forward or backward move, do this:

record the EXACT distance from the foul line you are on each and every shot.
record each and every shot you release in respect to target and board hit at the breakpoint.
record your velocity on each and every ball you throw.

When all is said and done, come back here and tell me your 1/2" move made all the difference in kicking the ten out.

Greazygeo · « **Reply #44 on:** October 07, 2013, 03:37:54 PM »

Quote from: spmcgivern on October 07, 2013, 12:44:32 PM

Quote from: Greazygeo on October 07, 2013, 08:52:02 AM

If I do a rain dance and it starts raining, does that mean it works?

People, you are saying a 1/2" move forward or back CHANGES your breakpoint/entry angle? Do me a favor, next time you go bowl and make a forward or backward move, do this:
record the EXACT distance from the foul line you are on each and every shot.
record each and every shot you release in respect to target and board hit at the breakpoint.
record your velocity on each and every ball you throw.

When all is said and done, come back here and tell me your 1/2" move made all the difference in kicking the ten out.
yeah dont count on me doing any of that for you. Two seasons ago I was leaving 12-15 ten pins a nite. Did a bunch of research and one method suggested moving up/back. So I went out and actually tried it. It worked. So I still do it when needed. For me its a half of my shoe length.

The half board moves work too. I use these moves more often than up/ back. Lots of ways to adjust for stuff, just need to find what works.

itsallaboutme · « **Reply #45 on:** October 07, 2013, 05:30:19 PM »

I hope you guys making 1/2 board moves don't wonder why you shoot 170 when the lanes are transitioning.

The next thing you're going to say is you move 1/2 right when you flat 10 in the forth frame of the second game.

Author Topic: Leaving 10 pins (Read 18178 times)

milorafferty

Leaving 10 pins

scotts33

Re: Leaving 10 pins

spmcgivern

Re: Leaving 10 pins

Arone24

Re: Leaving 10 pins

Joe Cool

Re: Leaving 10 pins

avabob

Re: Leaving 10 pins

bradl

Re: Leaving 10 pins

spmcgivern

Re: Leaving 10 pins

scotts33

Re: Leaving 10 pins

bradl

Re: Leaving 10 pins

spmcgivern

Re: Leaving 10 pins

Greazygeo

Re: Leaving 10 pins

ithinkican

Re: Leaving 10 pins

spmcgivern

Re: Leaving 10 pins

Greazygeo

Re: Leaving 10 pins

itsallaboutme

Re: Leaving 10 pins