Post by: thedjs on October 06, 2009, 03:25:27 AM
What would be the normal length of the oil for a typical "house shot"? At out house it's 42 feet which the manager says is typical. To me it seems a little long.
Thanks for the help.
Post by: leftyinsnellville on October 06, 2009, 11:33:51 AM
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I wanna be a house hack when I grow up.
http://averagebowlersballreviews.com/
Post by: tc300 on October 06, 2009, 11:56:49 AM
Post by: kmanestor22 on October 06, 2009, 12:14:56 PM
quote:
It's my experience that 38' is the typical legnth on a THS. I've seen 36' and I've seen 40', though I've rarely seen 42' for a THS.
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I wanna be a house hack when I grow up.
http://averagebowlersballreviews.com/
Couldn't be further from the truth. 38' is short on current generation synthetic lanes and oil machines. 40' to 42' are the norm today. Many variables dictate patterns length: mostly type of lane surface and type and volume of oil used. Also, cleaning practice comes into play. If they don't strip each time, they will oil shorter because of carrydown.
Pattern length on current generation lanes surfaces/conditions also dictates where your breakpoint should be. 40'- 42' means you'll be around 10 board at 40' on fresh oil. 45' would put you around 13-14. 38' around 7-8 and 35' around 5 board.
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
Post by: LaneHammer20 on October 06, 2009, 12:42:08 PM
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What is sandbagging???
Post by: Xcessive_Evil on October 06, 2009, 01:41:17 PM
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'09-'10 Arsenal completed!
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You may be the better bowler, but my car would blow the doors off of yours.
Post by: NoseofRI on October 06, 2009, 01:46:33 PM
There''s even a house around here that oils to 32 and blends to 40 or 42. So to answer the original question 42'' is usually the typical length but its not the same type of 42'' you would think of with say the PBA patterns.
Edited on 10/6/2009 1:52 PM
Post by: kmanestor22 on October 06, 2009, 01:50:39 PM
quote:
here's what everyone seems to be missing. The pattern is laid out about 35-38ft then buffed another 6-8 for typical house shots. That's where the blend comes in. Helps the slow the ball down at the end of the pattern so that it doesn't do anything crazy. The more blend the easier the lanes play.
There's even a house around here that oils to 32 and blends to 40 or 42. So to answer the original question 42' is usually the typical length but its not the same type of 42' you think of with say the PBA patterns.
No. You're mistaken. The PBA patterns are buffed out too. The end of the oil pattern is where the buffer brush picks up off the lane. Everyone I've read seems consistent with this definition.
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
Post by: Dan Belcher on October 06, 2009, 01:56:59 PM
quote:This is true, but also the PBA patterns have less buff, and less taper from front to back in general, which is why the backends fly on fresh oil, but then the heads break down quickly and everyone starts migrating left in a hurry.quote:
here's what everyone seems to be missing. The pattern is laid out about 35-38ft then buffed another 6-8 for typical house shots. That's where the blend comes in. Helps the slow the ball down at the end of the pattern so that it doesn't do anything crazy. The more blend the easier the lanes play.
There's even a house around here that oils to 32 and blends to 40 or 42. So to answer the original question 42' is usually the typical length but its not the same type of 42' you think of with say the PBA patterns.
No. You're mistaken. The PBA patterns are buffed out too. The end of the oil pattern is where the buffer brush picks up off the lane. Everyone I've read seems consistent with this definition.
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
Post by: NoseofRI on October 06, 2009, 01:57:19 PM
Post by: mmcfarland300 on October 06, 2009, 02:07:18 PM
quote:quote:
here's what everyone seems to be missing. The pattern is laid out about 35-38ft then buffed another 6-8 for typical house shots. That's where the blend comes in. Helps the slow the ball down at the end of the pattern so that it doesn't do anything crazy. The more blend the easier the lanes play.
There's even a house around here that oils to 32 and blends to 40 or 42. So to answer the original question 42' is usually the typical length but its not the same type of 42' you think of with say the PBA patterns.
No. You're mistaken. The PBA patterns are buffed out too. The end of the oil pattern is where the buffer brush picks up off the lane. Everyone I've read seems consistent with this definition.
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
Have you looked at the patterns recently obviously not. The PBA Patterns are not buffed any where near the same as house shots.
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"Another day will bring a different result"
"Pick your battles because stressing over things will not change an outcome"
Post by: pana on October 06, 2009, 02:09:55 PM
Post by: Dan Belcher on October 06, 2009, 02:10:33 PM
Post by: Hogsharley on October 06, 2009, 02:13:58 PM
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3 holes of fun!!
Post by: kmanestor22 on October 06, 2009, 02:23:37 PM
quote:
At the house where I bowl both PBA Experience and regular house shot leagues, the house shot is technically 42 foot, but the buff starts early enough that the outsides hook a ton close to the gutter, with an early but gentle hooking motion, but there''s less buff in the middle, which allows for more length and sharper backend motion. By comparison, bowling on the fresh PBA patterns, the ball looks like it gets kicked left when it gets downlane until the transition starts to get the ball reading the lane earlier and smoother. Technically the same length of oil, but the amount of buffing makes a huge difference in downlane motion.
There is one buffer that dresses the entire lane. You cannot buff less in the middle than the outside. You are officially booted from this discussion.
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Where is the bait? I''m goin'' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
Edited on 10/6/2009 2:23 PM
Post by: Pinhammer on October 06, 2009, 02:24:16 PM
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Roger Carroll
Pinnacle Pro Shop
Clarksville, TN
Post by: kmanestor22 on October 06, 2009, 02:28:51 PM
quote:
Sorry K but I don't believe I am mistaken. PBA patterns are slightly buffed yes, maybe a foot or 2, but nothing like a house shot. Hence why you see a lot of the pros a lot more up the back of the ball than you're typical house bowlers, so they can control the reaction at the end of the pattern.
The point I was making is 42 feet is 42 feet, it's just where the buffer picks up. I fully understand that house patterns are buffed for a longer distance most of the time. I was a lane man for 9 years and was the go-to guy in the area for lane conditioning questions. There were PBA patterns that only put a few passes of oil out and buffed much longer than a house pattern. This doesn't necessarily equate to easier conditions.
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
Post by: Dan Belcher on October 06, 2009, 02:34:49 PM
Post by: kmanestor22 on October 06, 2009, 02:39:03 PM
quote:
Fine, I had to look up the technical definition because I apparently used the wrong word (and so does my lane man at my house apparently!). A better way to describe then to keep you happy is that the oil is "blended" on the outside of a house shot much lighter downlane compared to the inside where it's more even from front to back. My point still stands, even if it isn't the result of the machine buffing out the very end of the pattern. And you can't "officially boot" me from any conversation here, so "nah nah nah nah nah"
You still don't understand. There is less oil outside because they applied less oil outside. Buffing doesn't make it that way. Buffing creates a downlane taper, that's it.
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
Post by: NoseofRI on October 06, 2009, 02:44:15 PM
quote:quote:
Sorry K but I don't believe I am mistaken. PBA patterns are slightly buffed yes, maybe a foot or 2, but nothing like a house shot. Hence why you see a lot of the pros a lot more up the back of the ball than you're typical house bowlers, so they can control the reaction at the end of the pattern.
The point I was making is 42 feet is 42 feet, it's just where the buffer picks up. I fully understand that house patterns are buffed for a longer distance most of the time. I was a lane man for 9 years and was the go-to guy in the area for lane conditioning questions. There were PBA patterns that only put a few passes of oil out and buffed much longer than a house pattern. This doesn't necessarily equate to easier conditions.
--------------------
Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
So you agree with what I was saying but I was mistaken?
See the problem there is that if that "PBA" pattern was buffed out longer than house patterns that it wasn't laid down by the numbers. And 42' is not 42'. A 42' PBA pattern plays NOTHING like a 42' THS. On the house shot the ball still picks up around 34-36ft which is typically where the buff starts. A 42' PBA pattern is just that, the pattern goes 42' and stops. On house shots even though its 42' this pattern is typically run to 34-38ft and then buffed out to 42'. The buffing is what evens the pattern out which is why I said the more buff the easier the condition. Now yes on PBA patterns they do have a buff zone, but this is typically incorporated into the way the pattern is laid down to make it play a certain way. (This last sentence is straight from the lane man for the PBA East Region). I don't know you said I was completely mistaken so maybe I used "buffed out" in the wrong way and should have said "blended"?
Just curious "go-to guy."
Post by: Dan Belcher on October 06, 2009, 02:54:55 PM
quote:The level of oil at 10 feet outside is much, much higher than the amount at 30 feet on the same board. On the inside part of the lane, there's only slightly less oil at 30 feet than at 10 feet on the inside part of the lane. That's why I said I used the wrong word. Yes, that's not technically buff. But that explains why the ball hooks so early and smoothly when you get it outside even though the pattern is technically 42 feet compared to a PBA shot where the same length, even if it's not a heavy volume of oil, plays longer. That's my only point. I just used the wrong word initially.quote:
Fine, I had to look up the technical definition because I apparently used the wrong word (and so does my lane man at my house apparently!). A better way to describe then to keep you happy is that the oil is "blended" on the outside of a house shot much lighter downlane compared to the inside where it's more even from front to back. My point still stands, even if it isn't the result of the machine buffing out the very end of the pattern. And you can't "officially boot" me from any conversation here, so "nah nah nah nah nah"
You still don't understand. There is less oil outside because they applied less oil outside. Buffing doesn't make it that way. Buffing creates a downlane taper, that's it.
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
Post by: kmanestor22 on October 06, 2009, 02:58:15 PM
quote:quote:quote:
Sorry K but I don't believe I am mistaken. PBA patterns are slightly buffed yes, maybe a foot or 2, but nothing like a house shot. Hence why you see a lot of the pros a lot more up the back of the ball than you're typical house bowlers, so they can control the reaction at the end of the pattern.
The point I was making is 42 feet is 42 feet, it's just where the buffer picks up. I fully understand that house patterns are buffed for a longer distance most of the time. I was a lane man for 9 years and was the go-to guy in the area for lane conditioning questions. There were PBA patterns that only put a few passes of oil out and buffed much longer than a house pattern. This doesn't necessarily equate to easier conditions.
--------------------
Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
So you agree with what I was saying but I was mistaken?
See the problem there is that if that "PBA" pattern was buffed out longer than house patterns that it wasn't laid down by the numbers. And 42' is not 42'. A 42' PBA pattern plays NOTHING like a 42' THS. On the house shot the ball still picks up around 34-36ft which is typically where the buff starts. A 42' PBA pattern is just that, the pattern goes 42' and stops. On house shots even though its 42' this pattern is typically run to 34-38ft and then buffed out to 42'. The buffing is what evens the pattern out which is why I said the more buff the easier the condition. Now yes on PBA patterns they do have a buff zone, but this is typically incorporated into the way the pattern is laid down to make it play a certain way. (This last sentence is straight from the lane man for the PBA East Region). I don't know you said I was completely mistaken so maybe I used "buffed out" in the wrong way and should have said "blended"?
Just curious "go-to guy."
42' IS 42'. It is not 36' or 39' or 45'. Just because the ball starts to react before the pattern distance, doesn't make that distance the pattern distance. That is completely intentional. The lack of buff distance is NOT the primary factor that makes PBA patterns difficult. The ratio of oil per board in the center versus the outside boards makes it easy or difficult. Buffing, along with machine speed, sets the downlane taper. While changing the buffing distance with alter the amount of oil that gets downlane, it won't change the board to board ratio much.
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
Post by: kmanestor22 on October 06, 2009, 03:09:14 PM
quote:quote:The level of oil at 10 feet outside is much, much higher than the amount at 30 feet on the same board. On the inside part of the lane, there's only slightly less oil at 30 feet than at 10 feet on the inside part of the lane. That's why I said I used the wrong word. Yes, that's not technically buff. But that explains why the ball hooks so early and smoothly when you get it outside even though the pattern is technically 42 feet compared to a PBA shot where the same length, even if it's not a heavy volume of oil, plays longer. That's my only point. I just used the wrong word initially.quote:
Fine, I had to look up the technical definition because I apparently used the wrong word (and so does my lane man at my house apparently!). A better way to describe then to keep you happy is that the oil is "blended" on the outside of a house shot much lighter downlane compared to the inside where it's more even from front to back. My point still stands, even if it isn't the result of the machine buffing out the very end of the pattern. And you can't "officially boot" me from any conversation here, so "nah nah nah nah nah"
You still don't understand. There is less oil outside because they applied less oil outside. Buffing doesn't make it that way. Buffing creates a downlane taper, that's it.
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
Ok. The first part is correct. A PBA shot that is 42 feet plays longer than a house shot at 42 feet ON THE OUTSIDE. That is because of the board to board ratio, not the buffing distance. Say your PBA buffline has 30 units 10-10 and 15 units outside, blended evenly. Also, your house pattern has 30 units 10-10 and 5 units outside, shaped more like a top hat. The patterns will react identically inside of ten. The ball will react dramatically different outside of ten.
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
Post by: mmcfarland300 on October 06, 2009, 03:09:58 PM
quote:quote:quote:quote:
Sorry K but I don't believe I am mistaken. PBA patterns are slightly buffed yes, maybe a foot or 2, but nothing like a house shot. Hence why you see a lot of the pros a lot more up the back of the ball than you're typical house bowlers, so they can control the reaction at the end of the pattern.
The point I was making is 42 feet is 42 feet, it's just where the buffer picks up. I fully understand that house patterns are buffed for a longer distance most of the time. I was a lane man for 9 years and was the go-to guy in the area for lane conditioning questions. There were PBA patterns that only put a few passes of oil out and buffed much longer than a house pattern. This doesn't necessarily equate to easier conditions.
--------------------
Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
So you agree with what I was saying but I was mistaken?
See the problem there is that if that "PBA" pattern was buffed out longer than house patterns that it wasn't laid down by the numbers. And 42' is not 42'. A 42' PBA pattern plays NOTHING like a 42' THS. On the house shot the ball still picks up around 34-36ft which is typically where the buff starts. A 42' PBA pattern is just that, the pattern goes 42' and stops. On house shots even though its 42' this pattern is typically run to 34-38ft and then buffed out to 42'. The buffing is what evens the pattern out which is why I said the more buff the easier the condition. Now yes on PBA patterns they do have a buff zone, but this is typically incorporated into the way the pattern is laid down to make it play a certain way. (This last sentence is straight from the lane man for the PBA East Region). I don't know you said I was completely mistaken so maybe I used "buffed out" in the wrong way and should have said "blended"?
Just curious "go-to guy."
42' IS 42'. It is not 36' or 39' or 45'. Just because the ball starts to react before the pattern distance, doesn't make that distance the pattern distance. That is completely intentional. The lack of buff distance is NOT the primary factor that makes PBA patterns difficult. The ratio of oil per board in the center versus the outside boards makes it easy or difficult. Buffing, along with machine speed, sets the downlane taper. While changing the buffing distance with alter the amount of oil that gets downlane, it won't change the board to board ratio much.
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
So then Special K you are saying that a 42' house shot is oiled to 42' your words. Wrong answer you are now booted from the conversation.
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"Another day will bring a different result"
"Pick your battles because stressing over things will not change an outcome"
Post by: kmanestor22 on October 06, 2009, 03:15:16 PM
quote:quote:quote:quote:quote:
Sorry K but I don't believe I am mistaken. PBA patterns are slightly buffed yes, maybe a foot or 2, but nothing like a house shot. Hence why you see a lot of the pros a lot more up the back of the ball than you're typical house bowlers, so they can control the reaction at the end of the pattern.
The point I was making is 42 feet is 42 feet, it's just where the buffer picks up. I fully understand that house patterns are buffed for a longer distance most of the time. I was a lane man for 9 years and was the go-to guy in the area for lane conditioning questions. There were PBA patterns that only put a few passes of oil out and buffed much longer than a house pattern. This doesn't necessarily equate to easier conditions.
--------------------
Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
So you agree with what I was saying but I was mistaken?
See the problem there is that if that "PBA" pattern was buffed out longer than house patterns that it wasn't laid down by the numbers. And 42' is not 42'. A 42' PBA pattern plays NOTHING like a 42' THS. On the house shot the ball still picks up around 34-36ft which is typically where the buff starts. A 42' PBA pattern is just that, the pattern goes 42' and stops. On house shots even though its 42' this pattern is typically run to 34-38ft and then buffed out to 42'. The buffing is what evens the pattern out which is why I said the more buff the easier the condition. Now yes on PBA patterns they do have a buff zone, but this is typically incorporated into the way the pattern is laid down to make it play a certain way. (This last sentence is straight from the lane man for the PBA East Region). I don't know you said I was completely mistaken so maybe I used "buffed out" in the wrong way and should have said "blended"?
Just curious "go-to guy."
42' IS 42'. It is not 36' or 39' or 45'. Just because the ball starts to react before the pattern distance, doesn't make that distance the pattern distance. That is completely intentional. The lack of buff distance is NOT the primary factor that makes PBA patterns difficult. The ratio of oil per board in the center versus the outside boards makes it easy or difficult. Buffing, along with machine speed, sets the downlane taper. While changing the buffing distance with alter the amount of oil that gets downlane, it won't change the board to board ratio much.
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
So then Special K you are saying that a 42' house shot is oiled to 42' your words. Wrong answer you are now booted from the conversation.
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"Another day will bring a different result"
"Pick your battles because stressing over things will not change an outcome"
I am an expert in this matter. If you are going to argue with me, you better use the correct terminology. Instead of arguing something than you do not do for a living with someone who is obviously an expert in his field, why don't you take advantage of this fact and ask me a question? I can talk down to you if you don't understand what I am saying.
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
Post by: lenstanles703 on October 06, 2009, 03:15:42 PM
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"We are all one"
Visionary test staff member
Post by: mmcfarland300 on October 06, 2009, 03:23:09 PM
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"Another day will bring a different result"
"Pick your battles because stressing over things will not change an outcome"
Post by: kmanestor22 on October 06, 2009, 03:26:50 PM
quote:
This is awesome Special K can Figjam about Lane Oil thats rich. Hey there don't hurt your arm patting yourself on the back, you might not be able to lift your machine after oiling.
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"Another day will bring a different result"
"Pick your battles because stressing over things will not change an outcome"
Flame all you want. End of the day: I give insight. You're just a flamer.
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
Post by: mmcfarland300 on October 06, 2009, 03:38:27 PM
quote:quote:
This is awesome Special K can Figjam about Lane Oil thats rich. Hey there don't hurt your arm patting yourself on the back, you might not be able to lift your machine after oiling.
--------------------
"Another day will bring a different result"
"Pick your battles because stressing over things will not change an outcome"
Flame all you want. End of the day: I give insight. You're just a flamer.
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
Special K maybe you meant you think you give insight. Ask your butty about being a flamer not sure what you meant.
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"Another day will bring a different result"
"Pick your battles because stressing over things will not change an outcome"
Post by: NoseofRI on October 06, 2009, 03:58:25 PM
quote:
42'' IS 42''. It is not 36'' or 39'' or 45''. Just because the ball starts to react before the pattern distance, doesn''t make that distance the pattern distance. That is completely intentional. The lack of buff distance is NOT the primary factor that makes PBA patterns difficult. The ratio of oil per board in the center versus the outside boards makes it easy or difficult. Buffing, along with machine speed, sets the downlane taper. While changing the buffing distance with alter the amount of oil that gets downlane, it won''t change the board to board ratio much.
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Where is the bait? I''m goin'' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
I''m not argueing the difficulty of the patterns, I''m pointing out the way the ball reads the pattern front to back. My point is that on PBA patterns 42'' means the pattern goes out to 42'' and stops. On THS the pattern is blended/buffed, whatever you want to call it, to 42'', hence them not being the same 42''. So what I mean by the is that there''s a difference between where the pattern ends and where the oil line ends. On a house shot the "pattern," be it a top hat, christmas tree or what have you is only oiled to about that 36ft range and then blended out to 42ft. And yes I was mistaken originally by using buffed. My original point was to simply explain/correct what everyone was originally saying about a typical house pattern just being a certain distance and that''s it. Because that is just flat out incorrect.
Edited on 10/6/2009 4:00 PM
Post by: kmanestor22 on October 06, 2009, 04:44:15 PM
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Where is the bait? I''m goin'' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
Edited on 10/6/2009 4:45 PM
Post by: thedjs on October 06, 2009, 10:35:08 PM
WOW!
Thanks for all the input, I think.
Post by: mmcfarland300 on October 07, 2009, 09:09:42 AM
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"Another day will bring a different result"
"Pick your battles because stressing over things will not change an outcome"
Post by: kmanestor22 on October 07, 2009, 11:22:48 AM
quote:
PBA 42'''' Pattern = Oil stops at 42 feet, and drops off dramatically (FLAT FLAT FLAT), volume of oil is slightly buffed/blended slightly lighter outside and longer, but very flat. There is an "out of bounds". Demands a great and accurate shot be made.
THS 42'''' Pattern = Buffed to 42 feet. The ball will still have heavy head oil, except lighter and less equally laterally across the lane (this does not mean the middle of the heads wont be heavily oiled). The heads are ran thicker to help the ball lane (probably 36-37 feet), buffed to 42 (allowing the ball to read) and a crisp backend to guide the ball, and if you miss outside there will be dryer boards earlier to help the ball easily recover. Gives miss room and doesn''''t demand great perfection.
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GetOffMe10Pin
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Member of the BR Inquisition
Don''''t get hung up on this buffout distance(the distance the machine buffs after the oil head stops applying oil to the transfer brush). On machines with a transfer brush, there is very little taper downlane from just the forward pass. I have seen tapes where there is nearly equal volume in the heads as two feet before the buff line. The distance that the machine is just buffing, whether it is 15 feet or 2 feet is almost irrelevant. The reverse pass is what provides the downlane taper that makes the difference in the heads of a THS compared to a sport shot. Sport shots usually don''t put much down on the reverse.
You are correct about the lateral placement of oil providing the area/out-of-bounds.
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Where is the bait? I''''m goin'''' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
Edited on 10/7/2009 11:23 AM
Edited on 10/7/2009 11:24 AM
Post by: NoseofRI on October 07, 2009, 12:23:29 PM
quote:
Look. You can argue with me until you''re blue in the face. You are still wrong. OP said manager told him pattern distance is 42 feet. I have explained what that meant and that it is normal.
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Where is the bait? I''m goin'' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
Edited on 10/6/2009 4:45 PM
Actually i thought i explained what that meant and you told me I was mistaken and then agreed with me 3 posts later?
Post by: kmanestor22 on October 07, 2009, 12:32:04 PM
quote:quote:
Look. You can argue with me until you''re blue in the face. You are still wrong. OP said manager told him pattern distance is 42 feet. I have explained what that meant and that it is normal.
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Where is the bait? I''m goin'' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
Edited on 10/6/2009 4:45 PM
Actually i thought i explained what that meant and you told me I was mistaken and then agreed with me 3 posts later?
Read my last post.
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Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer
Post by: luv2C10falll on October 10, 2009, 03:48:54 PM
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"I hate losing more than I love winning"