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Author Topic: Liz Johnson against the greats  (Read 7089 times)

mainzer

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Liz Johnson against the greats
« on: August 14, 2016, 07:54:55 PM »
In your opinion how does Liz Johnson stack up against let's say Earl Anthony, Dick Weber,  and other all time greats?

IMO she has to be at LEAST mentioned with the best, I understand the difference between the men's and women's game but she has been Dominant for a long period of time. She wins consistently and often makes it look easy.
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SVstar34

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Re: Liz Johnson against the greats
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2016, 08:09:32 PM »
Definitely one of, if not the best woman

Bowlaholic

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Re: Liz Johnson against the greats
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2016, 08:39:10 PM »
+1
She has to rank as one of the best down & in stroker man or woman that ever played the game.  And she can play left and swing it as well if she has to.  Great player.

tommyboy74

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Re: Liz Johnson against the greats
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2016, 09:36:27 PM »
She's one of the best that I've seen with the down and in game.  But she can swing it if she needs to.  5 US Open titles is 2nd all time.  She bowled the third PWBA televised 300 game.  Then she also has 21 titles to her credit (5 majors, 11 standard, 5 non-PWBA titles).  Lisa Wagner has the most at 32.  Plus, Liz hasn't declined in her bowling either.  She just seems to keep getting better and better and is always in contention.  In either case, she will have had one of the greatest careers ever once the bowling shoes are hung up.
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charlest

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Re: Liz Johnson against the greats
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2016, 10:51:30 PM »
She's been very good for a long time now, and among the top women bowlers, maybe in history.

Not sure I would mention her with the same praise due Earl and Dick Weber.
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itsallaboutme

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Re: Liz Johnson against the greats
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2016, 08:26:08 AM »
These multi generation debates never give any credit to past generations that current bowlers never saw.  Marion Ladewig won 8 US Opens and had a stretch of 12 that she wasn't out of the top 5. 

Liz is barely ahead of Kelly as the best of their generation.

Pinbuster

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Re: Liz Johnson against the greats
« Reply #6 on: August 15, 2016, 09:47:56 AM »
You are kidding aren't you?

How many PBA national titles has Liz won?

She is a great bowler, one of the best women out there today, maybe in the conversation of  one of the great female bowlers.

Part of her career she was denied the ability to bowl against the men but since she has been able to bowl on the PBA she has hardly been dominate.

But you can not compare her against Earl, Dick, Walter Ray, Pete, Duke, Parker, etc.

milorafferty

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Re: Liz Johnson against the greats
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2016, 09:53:57 AM »
How many PWBA titles have Earl, Dick, Walter Ray, Pete, Duke, Parker, etc. won?
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mainzer

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Re: Liz Johnson against the greats
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2016, 12:39:02 PM »
@pinbuster She can only beat who she bowls against. So if there is a greatest man to bowl why can't she be mentioned as the greatest woman in the same breath?
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bradl

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Re: Liz Johnson against the greats
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2016, 01:14:51 PM »
She's one of the best that I've seen with the down and in game.  But she can swing it if she needs to.  5 US Open titles is 2nd all time.  She bowled the third PWBA televised 300 game.  Then she also has 21 titles to her credit (5 majors, 11 standard, 5 non-PWBA titles).  Lisa Wagner has the most at 32.  Plus, Liz hasn't declined in her bowling either.  She just seems to keep getting better and better and is always in contention.  In either case, she will have had one of the greatest careers ever once the bowling shoes are hung up.

I could have sworn that Aleta Sill had more titles than Lisa.. I'm probably wrong, but I thought I remembered it that way when the LPBT and first PWBA tour came into town.

Either way, I wouldn't really put her in the same frame as Weber, but definitely would with Anthony. Earl's biggest asset, much like WRW, was the precision shot making they would do. They were so accurate on hitting their target, keeping the ball in play, and making so many good quality shots, that that's what won them title after title after title. And if those shots didn't strike, they left something that was easy to convert.

That, IMHO, is what separates the women from the men; the quality of shots. The men have a lot of flare and showmanship, especially when it comes to ball motion, but the women have it over the men when it comes to quality shots.

So I think the better question to ask, is "who would perform better in the clutch?" Liz, or the other all-time greats?

BL.

avabob

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Re: Liz Johnson against the greats
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2016, 03:30:13 PM »
The game has become so much more athletic as the friction factor on the lanes has increased over the years.  This evolution makes it difficult to make comparisons generation to generation, let alone between genders.  There is even a significant difference between Earl and WRW, despite many people who would put them in similar category.  WRW did indeed rely on accuracy as did Earl, but using much more ball speed and power to combat the high friction of the resin era.  The fact that he did no hook the ball a lot says more about his axis rotation than the amount of power supplied at release.  Whether Earl would have developed the same type of power game had he come up in the resin era is problematic and explains the difficulty of making comparisons.

Turning to Liz Johnson, she is more along the lines of the female version of WRW than bowlers of the Anthony era.  However she cannot generate the ball speed or the rev rate of the better players from the modern era.  However her skill level is so high that she can compete against the best men on a narrow range of conditions that matches her game. 

milorafferty

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Re: Liz Johnson against the greats
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2016, 04:38:13 PM »
The game has become so much more athletic as the friction factor on the lanes has increased over the years.  This evolution makes it difficult to make comparisons generation to generation, let alone between genders.  There is even a significant difference between Earl and WRW, despite many people who would put them in similar category.  WRW did indeed rely on accuracy as did Earl, but using much more ball speed and power to combat the high friction of the resin era.  The fact that he did no hook the ball a lot says more about his axis rotation than the amount of power supplied at release.  Whether Earl would have developed the same type of power game had he come up in the resin era is problematic and explains the difficulty of making comparisons.

Turning to Liz Johnson, she is more along the lines of the female version of WRW than bowlers of the Anthony era.  However she cannot generate the ball speed or the rev rate of the better players from the modern era.  However her skill level is so high that she can compete against the best men on a narrow range of conditions that matches her game. 

Don't even the best of the males have a narrow range of conditions that matches their game though? Even the best pros don't match up well to every pattern.
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tommyboy74

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Re: Liz Johnson against the greats
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2016, 05:45:08 PM »
She's one of the best that I've seen with the down and in game.  But she can swing it if she needs to.  5 US Open titles is 2nd all time.  She bowled the third PWBA televised 300 game.  Then she also has 21 titles to her credit (5 majors, 11 standard, 5 non-PWBA titles).  Lisa Wagner has the most at 32.  Plus, Liz hasn't declined in her bowling either.  She just seems to keep getting better and better and is always in contention.  In either case, she will have had one of the greatest careers ever once the bowling shoes are hung up.

I could have sworn that Aleta Sill had more titles than Lisa.. I'm probably wrong, but I thought I remembered it that way when the LPBT and first PWBA tour came into town.

Either way, I wouldn't really put her in the same frame as Weber, but definitely would with Anthony. Earl's biggest asset, much like WRW, was the precision shot making they would do. They were so accurate on hitting their target, keeping the ball in play, and making so many good quality shots, that that's what won them title after title after title. And if those shots didn't strike, they left something that was easy to convert.

That, IMHO, is what separates the women from the men; the quality of shots. The men have a lot of flare and showmanship, especially when it comes to ball motion, but the women have it over the men when it comes to quality shots.

So I think the better question to ask, is "who would perform better in the clutch?" Liz, or the other all-time greats?

BL.


Aleta Sill had 31 titles.
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Pinbuster

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Re: Liz Johnson against the greats
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2016, 09:34:29 PM »
@pinbuster She can only beat who she bowls against. So if there is a greatest man to bowl why can't she be mentioned as the greatest woman in the same breath?


But for the last 10+ years, in her prime, she has been able to compete on the PBA if she wanted to and she has competed in a lot of PBA events. I believe she has won one or more regional titles.

She is a very good bowler and a great woman bowler.

She can be compared to great women bowlers of past and present. I personally don't believe she measures up to some of the top women in the past but that is my opinion.

But I don't believe her overall talent can be compared to Earl, Dick, etc. and as Bob said comparing generations is nearly impossible.

But I believe the champions in the past would have figured out a way to win in today's environment. That is true on both the women and men's games.

avabob

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Re: Liz Johnson against the greats
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2016, 10:49:00 AM »
It is correct that even the best men don't match up to every pattern.  However the trend towards high ball speed and more end over end axis rotation has allowed the best men to be able to hit a wider range of patterns than was the case in the past.  In addition the men blow up the patterns so much quicker that matching up with the initial pattern is less critical unless it is very short   The biggest factor impacting matchup for most of us is the length of the buff because we have to make bigger adjustments from one buff length to another.  For high speed high rev pros it is easier to over power the pattern as opposed to playing the pattern. 

Digressing a bit, but one of the things that makes a house shot so high scoring is that buff length is less important because a bowler in essence controls the end of the oil by determining how quickly he gets outside the oil line.  On flatter patterns you cant change where a ball comes off the end of the oil by making lateral moves.     
« Last Edit: August 16, 2016, 10:55:18 AM by avabob »