Post by: TTforshort on March 30, 2007, 12:57:33 AM
The shot last night was a little oiler than normal. Our lead off bowler was sick so we pulled in a sub. For the night,I was +30. My wife was +50. The leadoff and our anchor were both about -40.
To make a long story short, we lost to a team with the most handicap. With the extra oil on the lanes, their plastic, down the middle prevailed. Most of the winning team bowled some where around +20 for the night.
To add insult to injury, we lost total pins by 1 pin. The winning team received $1600. We got $800 for the night but it was tainted by the house shot, which is difficult to start with, being slicker.
The outcome of the playoff would have been very different had I picked up one of the three 10 pins I whiffed. While we had extra oil in the middle, the backends were dry. My White Dot was moving 5 boards in the last 10 feet. I couldn't swing it because the oil pattern put it in the ditch. Straight up the the twig, the WD hit near the pocket. Standing 25 and targeting the 15 board was the shot but I just was off a board or two and couldn't find the right board.
I hope I learned a lesson last night. Both of my other two teams will also be in the playoffs. I will not lose again by a 10 pin.
TT
--------------------
"Following the course of least resistance makes for crooked rivers and crooked men."
Post by: shipper50 on March 30, 2007, 09:20:42 AM
Shipper
Post by: Strike300 on March 30, 2007, 10:51:06 AM
quote:
All the leagues I ever bowled on didnt allow subs during play offs. Things must have changed since the stone age huh?
Shipper
No not much. When I bowled league a few years ago they wouldn't of allowed a sub in the playoffs.
Post by: Ragnar on March 30, 2007, 10:56:38 AM
--------------------
"I do desire that we may be better strangers." Willie the Shake, As You Like it(III,ii)
"I'm capable of being just as sorry as you are, Dimitri."
Post by: qstick777 on March 30, 2007, 12:22:58 PM
quote:
The outcome of the playoff would have been very different had I picked up one of the three 10 pins I whiffed. While we had extra oil in the middle, the backends were dry. My White Dot was moving 5 boards in the last 10 feet. I couldn't swing it because the oil pattern put it in the ditch. Straight up the the twig, the WD hit near the pocket. Standing 25 and targeting the 15 board was the shot but I just was off a board or two and couldn't find the right board.
Kill the wrist and throw straight at those single pin spares! At least that's what "they" say.
--------------------
FAQ:http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5
Search Ballreviews entire database here: http://www.bowling-info.com/Search.html
Post by: 302efi on March 30, 2007, 01:09:46 PM
quote:
To make a long story short, we lost to a team with the most handicap....
...and yet people think the system is legit ?
Damn all the high handicapers to hell I say !
--------------------
Roto-Grip
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
Post by: Matt Fortney on March 30, 2007, 01:15:56 PM
Matt
Post by: myrddin97 on March 30, 2007, 03:12:27 PM
quote:
...and yet people think the system is legit ?
Damn all the high handicapers to hell I say !
By my math, the OP's team was about even average wise, while his opponents were +80 for the night-and they still only lost by one stick. Am I missing something here? I don't see the argument against handicap here. Granted, the "better" team appears to have lost, but as a team they bowled average while everybody on the other team was able to find a way to bowl a little better according to their ability.
Just so this is out in the open, I'm by no means a high average bowler. My book average is 177 from last year, and this year, unless I pull something out of thin air, I'll be just about there at the end of this year-currently 176. I'm somewhat disappointed, seeing how I honestly believe I should be in the low to mid 180's considering I feel I'm throwing the ball better than I did last year, but that's besides the point. I know, I and my team have been helped by our averages (on any given night we have 4 bowlers with mid to upper 170 averages and our anchor/captain is currently throwing 190 after have a couple bad weeks and his average dropping a couple sticks) but that doesn't change the fact we still have to bowl. With handicap, you're bowling as much against yourself as you are the person/team next to you.
Post by: 302efi on March 30, 2007, 03:25:51 PM
Lets say the handicap is 100% of 220.
176 x 3 = 528
You shoot 620 scratch
620 - 528 = 92 Pins....712 with handicap
You think thats "fair" ?
A 220 avg bowler still has to shoot 62 over his 660 set to tie you. We all know it harder to shoot 712 scratch then it is 620 scratch.
You tell me.
--------------------
Roto-Grip
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
Post by: 302efi on March 30, 2007, 03:38:59 PM
quote:
That's why the freaking handicap exists in the first place.
So because someone is a better bowler they should penalized ?
Whats the point of praticing and becoming a better bowler if you automaticly get pins when bowling against someone with "more skill" thats put time and effort into his game ?
Is there a handicap in basketball ? Football ? Soccer ? Tennis ?
Name one other sport/game besides golf where the better player or team has to give give up points/score because they are better ?
--------------------
Roto-Grip
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
Post by: myrddin97 on March 30, 2007, 04:02:27 PM
I do see your point and if I has the 200+ average vs 176 and I had to shoot 700 just to have a chance, I would be frustrated too. But I know somebody said this before, it comes down to the law of averages. I think I've had maybe 3-4 600's this year and I've only missed 2 maybe 3 weeks in the season. We don't have individual points in our league, shot down because a couple teams could figure out the math, so it's purely a team event. Just because I shoot 700 w/ handicap doesn't mean the rest of my team doesn't have to bowl. If they shoot less than their average and our oppenents each find a way to shoot.
Let me put it this way. Using your handicap of 100% of 220 and just to make the math easier, lets say my team as a whole averages 895 (175, 175, 175, 180, 190) That would give us a series handicap of 615.
We're bowling a team who averages 1000 (5x200). They would get 300 pins. I bowl my good/lucky 620 but everyone else on my team struggles, especially our higher average bowlers and each shoot 510 (ave 170).
We shoot 2660 + 615 = 3275
They shoot average 3000 + 300 = 3300
I bowled well, but we still lost and not by much. There's a place for handicap and scratch leagues/tournament. I know scratch leagues are hard(er) to find but they're out there.
My question is, you obviously know what you're getting into. And I have been on the other side of the fence, bowling a team of 130-150 ave bowlers (if that). We bowled alright, but nothing great, I think they each averaged 500 and we didn't walk away with any points. But when we faced them earlier in year, I beleive we took all 7. Oh, and the time they lost, their anchor was complaining they didn't have enough handicap. I know I did the linups that night, including their handicap and I had to ask our anchor to double check the math and make sure I was adding it up right.
Edited on 3/30/2007 4:11 PM
Edited on 3/30/2007 4:17 PM
Post by: 302efi on March 30, 2007, 04:15:15 PM
quote:
There's a place for handicap and scratch leagues/tournament. I know scratch leagues are hard(er) to find but they're out there.
Your exactly right
Around my area there is not a scratch league to be found
You got maybe 10 guys that will do it and thats it. People are scared to actually death to bowl stright up, thats how the vision of handicap has blurred everything.
I'm on my local ceneter managers tema and he tells me he has to sit in most the all league meetings to make sure the handicap system stay nice and high so he has happy bowlers every year. Sad, but true.
How did bowler get this far in debt ?
I mean bowlers have it all:
- Walled lanes
- Super strong automatic scoring and hooking balls
Why need the big 'caps ?
--------------------
Roto-Grip
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
Post by: jrals1 on March 30, 2007, 04:17:24 PM
This is really to 302efi, you said why are bowling and golf the only two sports with handicaps? No there really isn't any. Do you know why? Because other sports are played on the same level of competition. The sports you see are the best of the best playing each other. If the major leagues let anyone in to play at any point, there would be a handicap system, or the dominant players would destroy their competition.
For you, maybe you should try bowling to your competition level if you dont like it. Bowl scratch leagues, make a league up where the bottom average is a certain amount.
Post by: 302efi on March 30, 2007, 04:34:37 PM
quote:
I don't usually post much on here, but I do read quite a bit. After reading all you people whine about handicap leagues, why do you bowl in them?
This is really to 302efi, you said why are bowling and golf the only two sports with handicaps? No there really isn't any. Do you know why? Because other sports are played on the same level of competition. The sports you see are the best of the best playing each other. If the major leagues let anyone in to play at any point, there would be a handicap system, or the dominant players would destroy their competition.
For you, maybe you should try bowling to your competition level if you dont like it. Bowl scratch leagues, make a league up where the bottom average is a certain amount.
I'm not talking about the best of the best and whats on TV !
Is there handicap in any high school sports ?
Junior high sports ?
What about little league ?!?!?!
Pick-up games at a local park ??
NO !!!
Why does ADULT bowlers need handicap ? LOL
Almost makes you laugh to think about it
"Im not good enough as Bob, give me some pins so its even" LOL !!!!
--------------------
Roto-Grip
When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"
Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
Post by: myrddin97 on March 30, 2007, 04:49:56 PM
I think the reason is, in bowling (and golf) you can play as much against yourself as your opponent. I can't think of any other sports where you can do this. I think that's why there's a legit place for handicap bowling.
Oh, and I know it's not professional, but what about in shows like Pinks where two cars are racing on a 1/4 mile and one gets extra car lengths to make is more about the drivers and how they're vehicle holds up than it is about how fast the car can get to the finish. Is that "fair?"
Oh, and if you're close to the manager of your center, why don't you try to get him to put out a slightly more difficult shot over time, getting your bowlers use to it and hopefully better? I'm in agreement about the wall shot and I bowl in a house where it isn't as big. If you want to throw like that, the shot is there, but you better be able to control it, or you're not going to score that often.
Post by: HamPster on March 30, 2007, 05:10:52 PM
--------------------
Overdose, lethal metal level in my blood, it freely flows, embrace the pain, crush the suffering and cleanse it with the river surging through your veins.
Post by: Leftyhi-trak on March 30, 2007, 09:52:06 PM
Post by: Injury on March 31, 2007, 01:57:58 AM
quote:
Is there handicap in any high school sports ?
Junior high sports ?
What about little league ?!?!?!
Pick-up games at a local park ??
NO !!!
Why does ADULT bowlers need handicap ? LOL
Almost makes you laugh to think about it
incorrect, in friendly games where you know team b has no chance against team a there are ways we handicap starting as kids in pickup games. Hey guys take the extra player, or player x has to play one handed, Jimmy the giant can only play quarterback, we'll give ya some extra points. That is if you were raised to want sporting activities to be any kind of challenge.
Sports are all handicapped, it's called divisions. Just like bowling in one division there's handicap and the other there isn't. And as with all sports if you find yourself playing around in the wrong divinsion bad things can happen. Now bowling, golf, and horseracing do handicap differently such that a stronger competitor moving down can get beaten more easily in the actual match (that dirty competition thing I know it's a tough concept to grasp for some)...but then why if you are serious about competiting would you want to play at a level below you? By the same token the handicap system doesn't LOCK OUT the higher skilled, it just makes them show up as the possibility of embarassment is there. But then other sports playing in the wrong division have their own risks, as the lower division team typicaly takes it a bit more serious higher division takes it lightly and that's when injuries (or upsets) happen. You could go even further and look at the gambling side of sports handicapping where even if your team wins and doesn't win by enough you as the gambler still lose, so in some realms even in same division/same level competition mismatches are realized and attempts to compensate can exist.
Moral is play within your own division problem solved, if you complain about the lack of scratch bowlers well then topics on the decline of bowling and it's popularity aren't scarce and you can voice your concerns where they fit in. If your only goal is to collect wins no matter how easy they come, then I'm sure you want all the 170 bowlers to come donate points/money to your scratch league and you probably also like everything on walled up house shots as well.
For every week a 170 bowler could pull his crap together and shoot over 600 by running 200+ every game, there's many weeks he'd be donating points to people over the cap. Typically if 170 shoots 6 or near it it's one great game one good game, and one average game and that's a good week. So realisticly one game he'd blow you out, one game you'd win, and the other game it would likely be a tossup with you having to shoot over average but still in the realm of doable. So based on the way our leagues score that would be 1 point each, 2 points to be decided as pin total would determine how badly you beat his brains in on your gimmie win. Sounds competitive to me.
Why go with 100% anyways, if you had this blowout problem regularly (I highly doubt it) go to a league with a lower percentage. The rural house I bowl in it's 80% of 200 in every league and typically works fine considering the conditions we bowl on and the averages of bowlers on the house shot (put it this way the last 300 was shot many years ago, been a while since I checked the plaque but I'm pretty sure it was in the 90's..700 series are still talked about some when they happen). At 80% the handicapped bowler has to overcome that additional gap before he's beating an above handicap bowler that's maintaining his average, it's a way to extend the 1 "lucky shot" changing the outcome into them throwing more than likely a good game (for them) to win.
Handicap is about making things competitive and leveling the playing field typically week in and week out it does what it's supposed to do, barring leagues that have trouble with sandbaggers (that's a whole other topic and the fault of sorry people not necessarily the system).
Nevermind the fact that during most of these leagues (as in the case of the op) it's a TEAM. One bowler doesn't beat you, sure he can make your life difficult and make you work, but 1 guy doing awesome is counterbalanced by how the rest of his team does and the fact THAT total is what your team shoots against. 4 170's all shooting 600's in the same series...I highly doubt it and if it happens tell them to go buy a lottery ticket.
Not sure how this topic made a quantum leap about the op blaming a missed 10 pin on a loss (I doubt that was the only reason unless the rest of his team went 300 and lost, plenty of improvements to be made all over the scorecard I imagine...a combined -80 by two members comes to mind) to the merits of a handicapping system. By my reading the OP's team could have been the SECOND highest handicapped team in the league since it was never stated.