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Author Topic: Magic layout for everyone  (Read 3930 times)

Remmah

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Magic layout for everyone
« on: February 04, 2022, 08:56:30 PM »
Lets start with Just a reminder:When it comes to creating ball reaction, it is best to keep in mind that the largest influence on ball motion is the bowler and his or her attributes. A bowling ball in a static state creates nothing. It is the bowler that creates ball motion and the bowling ball is a tool or enhancer of what is created by the bowler.

 

bowling_rebel

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Re: Magic layout for everyone
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2022, 03:12:51 AM »
Maybe it's something for people to discuss endlessly.

Mo Pinel may have had a lot to do with creating some notion of dramatically changing ball reaction with layout.

3 years ago I switched to bowling no-thumb. Right now I'm at 420 revs and over 16 MPH monitor speed. But 3 years ago I was 375 revs with 12-13 MPH monitor. So way rev dominant and hard to control the ball.

I had a Covert Tank which I loved, 4 inch pin to pap. It gave me great control despite my slow ball speed. I loved it so much I got another one, drilled 1 1/2 inch pin to pap and polished.

Unlike all the other Tanks Motiv has made, the Covert flared a lot.  So I expected a big difference between the high and low flare ones. It was about 2 boards. That was it. But the ball complimented each other if I wanted a little more or less hook.

Then I had my Cyclone, drilled according to my PAP location the first month I bowled without a thumb. As my game developed, my PAP moved and I ended up with a ball that flared backwards. But it still rolled fine. Even with oil rings going over fingers. Eventually I did have it re-drilled to a normal 4 inch pin to PAP. no big difference in reaction to before. 

These experiences have shown me that layouts are only minor tweaks. I have some balls 4 in pin to PAP and some 2 inches. And that's it. That follows what the pro's do. Just a few simple layouts and let the ball do what it was designed to do. If someone is looking for a magical layout for a ball, then maybe they need to get another ball instead.

bautch24

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Re: Magic layout for everyone
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2022, 07:55:15 AM »
Maybe it's something for people to discuss endlessly.

Mo Pinel may have had a lot to do with creating some notion of dramatically changing ball reaction with layout.

3 years ago I switched to bowling no-thumb. Right now I'm at 420 revs and over 16 MPH monitor speed. But 3 years ago I was 375 revs with 12-13 MPH monitor. So way rev dominant and hard to control the ball.

I had a Covert Tank which I loved, 4 inch pin to pap. It gave me great control despite my slow ball speed. I loved it so much I got another one, drilled 1 1/2 inch pin to pap and polished.

Unlike all the other Tanks Motiv has made, the Covert flared a lot.  So I expected a big difference between the high and low flare ones. It was about 2 boards. That was it. But the ball complimented each other if I wanted a little more or less hook.

Then I had my Cyclone, drilled according to my PAP location the first month I bowled without a thumb. As my game developed, my PAP moved and I ended up with a ball that flared backwards. But it still rolled fine. Even with oil rings going over fingers. Eventually I did have it re-drilled to a normal 4 inch pin to PAP. no big difference in reaction to before. 

These experiences have shown me that layouts are only minor tweaks. I have some balls 4 in pin to PAP and some 2 inches. And that's it. That follows what the pro's do. Just a few simple layouts and let the ball do what it was designed to do. If someone is looking for a magical layout for a ball, then maybe they need to get another ball instead.

What was the key to the increase in your ball speed, I recently switched to no thumb and speed has been consistently 14.5mph. Would love to get up to 16.

morpheus

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Re: Magic layout for everyone
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2022, 10:48:50 AM »
I see lots of people who are obsessed with layouts when they should be obsessed with how the cover/surface of their ball matches up to the condition.
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avabob

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Re: Magic layout for everyone
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2022, 11:11:40 AM »
90% of ball reaction  is the bowlers release and surface prep.  Layout can have an impact on the shape but not the overall hook. 

bowling_rebel

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Re: Magic layout for everyone
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2022, 04:28:14 PM »

What was the key to the increase in your ball speed, I recently switched to no thumb and speed has been consistently 14.5mph. Would love to get up to 16.

That's a big question and a bit off topic. Regardless, I'll try to answer it.

There was no one thing I did to change ball speed. There was not tip I learned to get another 3+MPH over night.

A large part of it was just getting more comfortable with my game, and slowly over time using my legs more.

I did try really increasing my back swing a lot for a while - but without my thumb in ball, it just seemed to add too many things that could go wrong. Gradually I realized the more relaxed I was, the more ball speed I had.

Working on slowing everything down helped. It seems paradoxical, but if you try to throw it harder, it just creates muscle tension. I used to be way to fast on the first 2 steps, then not in position for slide. Get more speeding by slowly getting into position, then gently letting it rip for slide and release.

Working out a little, single leg squats for leg strength and then jogging/stretching for flexibility. Helps me use my legs. 3 years ago I was very stiff and it took a whole game at least to warm up so. Now I just need a few shots and can bend down fine without tightness.

Also - this is going to sound really old school, not "modern" and so if people disagree with it, fine. Look at bowlers like Marshal Holeman. Yes, he used his thumb, but a lot similarities to no-thumb bowling. Kept backswing short and simple, and a lot of speed with his legs.

Yeah, if you do that you can't "plant" and get more leverage and thus not "modern." Whatever, my rev rate off release is 420, and I track very high. I need speed and not more leverage.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2022, 04:32:22 PM by bowling_rebel »

Jesse James

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Re: Magic layout for everyone
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2022, 10:18:07 AM »
Maybe it's something for people to discuss endlessly.

Mo Pinel may have had a lot to do with creating some notion of dramatically changing ball reaction with layout.

3 years ago I switched to bowling no-thumb. Right now I'm at 420 revs and over 16 MPH monitor speed. But 3 years ago I was 375 revs with 12-13 MPH monitor. So way rev dominant and hard to control the ball.

I had a Covert Tank which I loved, 4 inch pin to pap. It gave me great control despite my slow ball speed. I loved it so much I got another one, drilled 1 1/2 inch pin to pap and polished.

Unlike all the other Tanks Motiv has made, the Covert flared a lot.  So I expected a big difference between the high and low flare ones. It was about 2 boards. That was it. But the ball complimented each other if I wanted a little more or less hook.

Then I had my Cyclone, drilled according to my PAP location the first month I bowled without a thumb. As my game developed, my PAP moved and I ended up with a ball that flared backwards. But it still rolled fine. Even with oil rings going over fingers. Eventually I did have it re-drilled to a normal 4 inch pin to PAP. no big difference in reaction to before. 

These experiences have shown me that layouts are only minor tweaks. I have some balls 4 in pin to PAP and some 2 inches. And that's it. That follows what the pro's do. Just a few simple layouts and let the ball do what it was designed to do. If someone is looking for a magical layout for a ball, then maybe they need to get another ball instead.

This all depends on the person, their style and the conditions you bowl on.

For a high speed, high rev bowler, layout changes only seem to be tweaks as you only notice minor differences in ball reactions when the ball goes down the lane.

I am a low speed, stroker and as such layout changes make a HUGE and very visible difference in how I release the ball; where my break point is and how the ball rolls through the pins. 

There is no one layout that covers all. If that were the case there would be no full rollers!

I have balls drilled for strength thru the mids. I have balls drilled for backend pop! I have balls drilled for soft angle entry. I have balls drilled for nothing but early roll. It depends solely on the bowler and his or her style! My layout changes allow me to create different arc shapes and definitely different break points in different areas of the lane.

My normal ball speed hovers between 13.35 and 14.40mph usually. With layout changes I can attack different parts of the lane, especially when they've been chewed up by high traffic.


also, @Bowling Rebel.....I hope you know that the Cyclone was an unusual piece, in that it had a high performance core in it, but a relatively weak cover stock. It was more of a marketing gimmick to me. To average people, and slower speed strokers like myself that ball was uncontrollable regardless of layout.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2022, 10:23:30 AM by Jesse James »
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TWOHAND834

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Re: Magic layout for everyone
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2022, 09:07:19 AM »
Jesse,

You do realize the cover on the Cyclone was the same cover as The One.  That cover was not weak by any stretch.  Ironically it is also the same cover as the original Gamebreaker and the Gamebreaker 2 balls (Solid and Gold Pearl but excluding Phenoms).

Regarding magical layout........I am a huge fan of 4.5 pin to PAP distance.  It is a happy medium between rolling too quickly and going too long.  Then, if I want a longer transition, I go with 45 degree angle and if I want a more angular motion, I go with 25-30 degree. This is obviously for me and I dont just automatically recommend for everyone else since everyone is different.
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Gene J Kanak

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Re: Magic layout for everyone
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2022, 12:02:22 PM »
Layout variety and arsenal size are a matter of personal preference, so every bowler is different. Some bowlers pick 2-3 of their favorite layouts, put that on everything, and go to work. Others go deep into the weeds trying all sorts of layouts, and they're good with that. One approach isn't better than the other. It's a matter of preference.

The same goes for arsenal size. I know of some pros who like to go minimalist, drilling and taking no more than 6-8 balls no matter where they're going or what they're bowling on. Others will drill five balls between each round to try to get things just right. Again, one isn't better than the other.

Go with what you believe in and think will help you be successful, and let others go their own way. We don't all have to fit into the same box.