Author Topic: Markings on Used Balls (Read 4976 times)

JOE FALCO · « **on:** November 26, 2009, 04:20:34 AM »

I've recently noticed Used balls FOR SALE with pictures. These pictures clearly show the lines used to layout the ball. Isn't it UNUSUAL for these lines to be scribed into the ball? Isn't it normal to use a marker that can be wiped off? Wouldn't this signal a driller that is not competent?

Just wondering if that's what must bowlers would conclude?
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I predict the PBA and the USBC will NOT see 2011
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pba300900 · « **Reply #16 on:** November 27, 2009, 11:24:00 AM »

Not to hi-jack the thread but, did anyone notice that WRW Jr. has a middle finger span longer than the ring finger span? Is that normal for anyone else? I can't think of anyone in my area whos span is like this.
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Buzzhead · « **Reply #17 on:** November 27, 2009, 03:00:53 PM »

I drill for a lot of younger bowlers, and there is a lot of that with them. For most people they cannot understand how their ring finger is shorter on their hand and not shorter when it is laying across the ball. I usually take a pencil and mark the first knuckle joint before I measure the ball to show them that this is infact the case....
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fuzzy73212 · « **Reply #18 on:** November 27, 2009, 03:27:30 PM »

A team mate of mine recently went to this type of grip. He called it a drop ring finger. According to him, it helps stay up the back of the ball better.
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JohnP · « **Reply #19 on:** November 27, 2009, 04:02:58 PM »

quote:
As far as being "That precise" think of it this way...someone drills a ball and they're off 1/64...not a big deal for most people right? But what if he's off 1/64 again next time...and again...it adds up.

I keep a spec sheet for each ball I drill. If a customer comes back in to have another ball drilled "just like my Strikes-A-Lot" I go back to the sheet on that ball and use the same specs. So if I'm off by 1/64" each time, it's still a total of 1/64". Why try to copy a ball by measuring it if you drilled it? -- JohnP

qstick777 · « **Reply #20 on:** November 27, 2009, 05:46:54 PM »

quote:
quote:
I keep a spec sheet for each ball I drill. If a customer comes back in to have another ball drilled "just like my Strikes-A-Lot" I go back to the sheet on that ball and use the same specs. So if I'm off by 1/64" each time, it's still a total of 1/64". Why try to copy a ball by measuring it if you drilled it? -- JohnP

I don't copy balls that I drill. I keep everything on file on computer as well. My comment was mainly an example as to why it matters even at 1/64.
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That would be the way to do it, but not every shop does it that way.

My old shop would just pull the measurements off of an existing ball. I don't even think he had drill sheets!

I tried to get him to use a computer program for keeping that stuff and he told me the only thing he needed his computer for was to play solitaire and keep up with sporting news!

To top it off, he was using the cheap plastic span rulers - I think they were from Columbia or maybe Ace.

I took 6 balls in to him one day to have them measured. He looked at me and said "they're all different." I looked at him and said "they were all drilled here!"

THIRTYSIXRED · « **Reply #21 on:** November 27, 2009, 11:20:14 PM »

All balls will be off by a small amount. Over the years I've had dozens of balls drilled. Not one of them feels exactly like the others. They are all so close that the only person who will notice is the person who has to use them.

None of them are "off" by enough to hinder the ability to perform on the lanes.

The ball that was scribed is probably off the most in comparison to the ones that were laid out with grease pencil. It's also not a ball I prefer to use because of its different feel (generally last out of the bag).

Lane conditions, weather, cover prep, all play a bigger part in bowler performance than how "perfect" a ball is laid out.

If you guys think the ball has to be that accurate...your probably not good enough to be a league bowler. I could probably pick up a house ball and beat you guys with it.

Scribing a ball does nothing but deface it...won't allow that to happen to any of my stuff again.

JohnP · « **Reply #22 on:** November 28, 2009, 09:28:46 AM »

quote:
My driller is still working off sheets of paper in a stack. I am trying to get him to file it all on the computer. Great driller, just not computer savvy.

Actually I don't use a computer either. I print my blank drill sheets on 3 hole punched 8 1/2" X 11" paper. I have a three ring binder with alphabetic tabs, and file each sheet in alphabetic order by last name as soon as I've finished it. I drill about 150 balls per year, this method would be quite bulky for a high volume shop. I can store 2 years of sheets in a 2" binder, and use a 3" binder for current sheets. -- JohnP

Juggernaut · « **Reply #23 on:** November 28, 2009, 10:02:46 AM »

quote:
If you guys think the ball has to be that accurate...your probably not good enough to be a league bowler.

My driller drilled me one last month. When I went to pick it up, I told him it was short. When he measured it, he missed it by 1/64th of an inch.

He was amazed that I could "feel" that slight a difference, but I could. Would it have made a difference? I don't know, but I had him "fix" it anyway.

quote:
I could probably pick up a house ball and beat you guys with it.

I wish there was some way we could do this, I'd like to see you try.

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Mike Austin · « **Reply #24 on:** November 28, 2009, 10:14:09 AM »

quote:
I simply will not accept equipment that is off. If you can not make each and every ball the same span and pitch than your not good at your job. If I have 100 balls, I expect each and every one to be perfect.

A 64th here, a 1/16th there..etc is not acceptable.

I love the internet tough guy attitude. I needed a good laugh today

"If you guys think the ball has to be that accurate...your probably not good enough to be a league bowler. I could probably pick up a house ball and beat you guys with it."

Edited on 11/28/2009 10:46 AM

I scribed most all of the balls that I drilled in my shop, including laddog's. For multiple reasons. I did ask beforehand, if someone did not want the lines I did not do it, but most all the time when I explained why I did it, they wanted it.

Scribe lines are more accurate period. Why would you not want the best work for your hard earned money? Some of you whining about the lines are the same ones whining that drilling is too high, balls are too high, that pro shop is blah, blah, blah... Just like pba said in his quote, being off is unacceptable. I didn't want to have to do the work again because the drilling I did was off. There wasn't going to be any off, period. Glow bowler, league bowler, pro bowler, what difference does it make? EVERY bowler should have properly drilled and fitted equipment. I have heard coaches say "you can't outcoach a bad fit". How good is the fit if it's drilled wrong? It's wrong.

My shop was very high volume, most of the time I had an assembly line style of drilling multiple new, used, plugged, balls all at the same time. Had many people waiting, and had to take care of those waiting people while drilling, scribing the ball helped me know exactly where I was at in the drilling process at a quick glance. There were also 2,3,4 of us drilling, handling the balls, that way Xguy didn't knock off the pencil line accidently and try to draw it back and do it wrong, there will be no off, period.

Nobody has brought up, but those pencils cost money, they are going up in price, that's one more expense that I lowered, even though not a big one, the little bits add up.

No other shops in Houston scribed the lines on the ball at that time, I started doing it to some balls I drilled for certain customers and it became a way to identify balls that we drilled. Soon, I had people asking for the scribe lines, then I went to it most all the time.

If you don't want the lines scribed on your ball, great, ask/be sure it is not done for you. If you don't want the lines on a used ball, then don't buy the ball. Once you let go of the ball during bowling, you can't see those lines, what difference does it make. It doesn't make the ball less valuable or defaced, it's just been drilled by a person that is trying to do the best job possible for their customers. I have seen some shops use a pencil line that is almost 1/16 thick/wide, how can THAT possibly be good??

Ebonite makes some nice software for pro shops to save spec sheets, also does inventory and point of sale. Well worth the money for that package. I have over 5000 spec sheets in my lap top from my shop, and that's just individuals, not counting multiple grips for an individual, no way I could do binders or stacks, just takes too long. One shop in Houston doesn't use software like that, but he does SCAN them and save them with Adobe software, each person has a folder, works really nice, good idea.

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laddog54 · « **Reply #25 on:** November 28, 2009, 10:45:04 AM »

Mike Austin is the best I have ever used. If I had the money I would by him a proshop so I could ship stuff for him to drill. As for the software he is talking about I have copies he printed off for me and my brother just so I have them at all times in case of emergency.
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JOE FALCO · « **Reply #26 on:** November 28, 2009, 11:08:35 AM »

quote:
Your explanation is a good one .and understandable as you describe .. is there a reason why a local driller would do it? Aside from the accuracy thing would you agree it's not necessary? Would you also agree that the resale value DROPS with such markings?

I can picture a second driller (using the same technique) could find himself with MORE LINES on a ball then he could handle.

I do understand the situation you suggest and I also understand your exception to the word INCOMPETENT .. however do you think it necessary for accuracy for the LOCALS? Keep in mind that a LARGE PERCENTAGE of bowlers don't recognize the difference of a 1000 of an inch!

Thought I withdrew the word INCOMPETENT .. but I guess that's the only thing that stuck .. so be it ..

Yes .. I'm one of the guys who complains about cost of drilling .. however that's NOT what we are discussing here .. seems it's kind of hard to keep SOME PEOPLE on topic ..

Thought I was referring to USED BALLS .. does scribing LAYOUT lines on a ball (in the case I've seen . scribing CANNOT EASILY be erased) decrease the RE-SALE VALUE of a ball? I feel INSULTED if I took possession of a bowling ball that had all these markings from previous drillers. Perhaps the owners of these SCRIBED balls have NO INTENTIONS of selling them .. then I see the point .. otherwise the minute difference should be left to the PRO'S! That' my opinion!

This posting was not intended to get PERSONAL .. I think the explanation of the SCRIBED lines by PROS (as previously written) is excellent and understandable. Those of you who drill for PRO'S and the TOUR TRUCK surely have resolved a potential problem with the scribing .. EXCELLENT REASONING and a lesson to me!
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I predict the PBA and the USBC will NOT see 2011
J O E - F A L C O

RIP Thong Princess/Sawbones

Mike Austin · « **Reply #27 on:** November 28, 2009, 11:24:43 AM »

Thanks dog and PBA, but please dont hijack into a Mike Austin figjam, not the intent. Just wanted to explain why the scribes are used.

One thing that nobody mentioned and I forgot, is the overall circumference of the ball. This varies to a noticable degree from ball to ball, company to company. Scribe lines or not your ball can feel different because the ball came from the factory a different size than your other ball(s). Not much a driller can do about this, but do the best job he can.
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charlest · « **Reply #28 on:** November 28, 2009, 12:46:49 PM »

quote:
There is your answer right there on scribe lines. Now I want somebody to tell Mike Austin that he is not any good, not precise, and is incompetent because he needs a scribe line as a crutch to drill.

Anybody? Anybody out there? Yoo hoo....where are the big mouths at?

No, that is not THE answer. For gosh sakes, how many drillers out there are Mike Austin or do work the way he does? Damned few, I''ll tell you that from experience.

Then there are scribe lines, like I assume he uses and then there are scribe GOUGES, that, as someone else has already pointed out, need a 180 grit sanding to even begin to remove. When you redrill a used ball, if your track goes over one of the scribed GOUGES (vs a scribe line), you can almost hear it thumping down the lane.

Mike,

Also, how can you tell someone who sent you a used ball with scribed lines back to him and tell him what he thinks is normal is garbage to you?
If it''s a coast to coast shipping, these days that a $25 charge. I''d expect to be reimbursed for shipping it back to him. So he''s out $50. He would be mad. That is more that most used balls sell for these days.

There''s a lot aspects to this idea. The world is not black and white.

Also there''s accuracy and there''s accuracy. I''ve had a lot of balls drilled over the past 25 years, all by one guy, and he uses a sharpened grease pencil. He had one that was off and when it was measured, it turned to be off by 1/32" in span. (No, guys, I don''t care what you think of my feeling that difference. That is NOT the subject!) I''m sure Mike is just as accurate with a grease pencil.

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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Edited on 11/28/2009 1:49 PM

JustinWi · « **Reply #29 on:** November 28, 2009, 01:19:02 PM »

Scribing is fun once in a while, and I have a couple of customers that request it, but isn''''t completely needed except for the PBA truck or a high volume multiple driller shop. When you have a ton of balls to drill in a very short time, grease pencil gets wiped off pretty easily in the shuffle. Scribing makes sense in this application, if only for its resistance to being accidentally wiped off.

People forget that drilling is much like bowling, you have a way you are comfortable with. If you scribe and hit your spans or if you don''''t scribe, it doesn''''t matter as long as the grip is right.

As far as accuracy of Scribe vs. Pencil... If you can''t drill several balls nearly identical with only a dot in the grip center, its time to get an Ovalmatic with endmills and study up.

And remember, an opinion is just that, an opinion.

Edited on 11/28/2009 2:49 PM

THIRTYSIXRED · « **Reply #30 on:** November 28, 2009, 02:24:55 PM »

I did not mean for the remark about beating you guys with a house ball as mean spirited, more than I meant it to get you thinking.

I have seen bowling center employees (and one I knew quite well) have the capability to take an average house ball and throw 8, 10 12 strikes in a row (a sign of TRUE talent)...where you guys will complain over 1/64th of an inch.

During the night does your hand not expand and contract based upon temperature in the building. I can bowl on Thursday night (and then a make up on Sunday morning) with the SAME BALL and it will feel different. Your blood pressure will be higher when you wake up in the morning than at 7 PM at night.

Do you not add and remove tape accordingly ?? To make the ball fit for THAT TIME PERIOD.

I do not care how someone goes about drilling stuff...put a round bit to a spherical ball and it will never be perfect. Even with the scribe lines. This is something that would have to be measured by lasers and high tech machines. The stress risers created will be different based upon what the ball is made out of.

On top of that you are forgetting that bowling balls have a maximum and minimum diameter...meaning they ALL DO NOT START OUT EXACTLY THE SAME !! They have to meet a TOLERANCE to be approved.

If you think that a ball just out of box (at the high end of tolerance) and a ball that has been plugged and resurfaced (even just once) will be the same diameter and circumference you are CRAZY. The smaller one will "feel" better in your hand provided they were drilled the same.

This was an actual study done once with test balls labeled A B and C. All were drilled using the SAME specs and SAME pitches (but on balls at the high end, middle and low end of the circumference tolerance). All the Pros picked the smallest ball out of the pack. Why ?? Because they could hold it easier.

Now if I change the overall starting diameter (and therefore Circumference) of the ball (which is measured in thousandths) then it only makes sense the pitches and span changes just slightly (even with scribing).

How many drillers out there have Micrometers large enough to hold a bowling ball and measure a true Diameter ?? Then tell me how many of you are smart enough to do appropriate Mathematics to vary your drilling to get all the equipment for one person to feel Perfect !!).

My guess is the people here who swear by scribe lines have picked a driller they feel comfortable with and therefore will not change to someone who uses a grease pencil (because they feel they are "low tech"

Sorry guys...threw my only 800 with a ball that was marked out with a yellow grease pencil on a drill press without the latest "guides" The quality of the driller compensates based on experience and knowledge of the person throwing the ball and his/her game.

As for yellow pencils getting expensive...I still have some from a bowling center that closed...maybe I should auction them off if I could ever find what box I tucked them away in. Sounds like cheapskates to me not to want to buy pencils.

Let me guess you don't buy the white crayon to fill in the initials that someone wants engraved in their ball...you make them go buy their own crayons ??

Author Topic: Markings on Used Balls (Read 4976 times)

JOE FALCO

Markings on Used Balls

pba300900

Re: Markings on Used Balls

Buzzhead

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fuzzy73212

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JohnP

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qstick777

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THIRTYSIXRED

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JohnP

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Juggernaut

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Mike Austin

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laddog54

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JOE FALCO

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Mike Austin

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charlest

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JustinWi

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THIRTYSIXRED

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