Maybe I do not understand the question.  Whats the problem with a capped tournament at 840.  If you have bowlers with 230 averages you just have to include some lower average bowlers to be allowed to bowl.  Same for the 150 average bowlers, they need to find some higher average bowlers to bowl with.  We do this all the time in leagues why not tournaments.  I do agree, you would want to get as close to 840 as possible just like you would in trying to get close to your league max.  If a team can only get to 700 then its their problem, they new the cap going in.  All this does is make the majority of the teams competitive.  What did I miss ?

I think the issue arose having a cap AND handicapping the same tournament.  I don't see the need in both personally.

I am sitting out any tournements until at least the year after next. I have been bowling badly the last half of last year and all this year due to back problems. My back is now better and I have not bowled under 630 for the last 5 weeks now. I am hearing alot of complants due to having a 170 average and getting around 40 pins a game handicap, so this is my way of trying not to be accused of being a bagger. Can you imanagine what would be said if I bowled in the local city tourney and we won because I bowled a 650 +?

Wouldn't be any different than any city tournament I have been in.  Just finished our city tournament and we were leading scratch team with 2941 (4 member team) and handicap was OVER 3200!!  That is over 800 a man!!

I'm almost on his side, I wouldn't want to deal with the flak or possible rerating circus.  There was a guy here that got really good really quick, and for about a year he was winning or nearly winning everything, and everybody HATED him. 

Exactly

Quote from: Gizmo823 on February 25, 2014, 08:01:59 AM

I'm almost on his side, I wouldn't want to deal with the flak or possible rerating circus.  There was a guy here that got really good really quick, and for about a year he was winning or nearly winning everything, and everybody HATED him. 

Heaven forbid someone get better.  I don't mind those instances where the bowler has just a few years of experience and has gotten better every year.  I hate those that have consistent 190 averages and miraculously get better for just a couple weekends a year that happen to coincide with tournament season.

 Lets be honest about something.

 THERE IS NO WAY TO MAKE BOWLING FAIR.

  As a higher average bowler, I cannot tell you how many times I have lost games, series, tournaments, and awards to lower average bowlers who beat me to death with their handicap.

 What the higher average bowlers must realize is, there are far more bowlers with averages below 200 than there are with averages over 200, and ANYTHING that is going to be held is going to try to appeal to the MASSES, which automatically means bowlers with averages below 200 who are getting some type of handicap.

 Higher average bowlers feel like they should have the advantage, many times it is because they have worked hard to get where they are.

 Handicap bowlers feel like they should have an equal chance at winning, given that they are putting just as much money into the entry fee.


 You cannot reconcile the two, and the real sandbaggers are just going to continue to exploit this.

 In a perfect world, everybody would be a scratch bowler, and all tournaments would not need any handicap

 It is not a perfect world.

Like many tournaments, the money is rarely made from the tournament payout...  it's from the brackets and other pots.  Keep it handicap, but make sure there are plenty of other options, brackets, eliminator, etc. Etc.

I have to admit, this is the first time I have ever heard of having an average cap AND handiap. Usually it is one of the other. I agree with what has been posted before, if I see something that has an average cap, I am not going to enter into it unless I have a team that is near the cap. If the cap is 840, I want to be at least 830 or 835 (depending on the situation, in a league I would probably go with 830, but in a tournament setting I would want to be closer to 835 and up). If you are giving handicap, let the averages go as high as they want, the handicap should make up for it.
 
Just one little story about handicap, about 5-6 years ago, I was bowling in the Houston city tournament. I came in as basically a scratch bowler (they based handicap off the highest average in the city, I think it was 90% but I don't remember, so I got something like 4-5 pins a game). I shot over 2300 for those 9 games (had 810 and 786 in D/S). I finished second in scratch, by about 4-5 pins. But both the guy that won ( a very good bowler in his own right) and I finished in the mid teen to early 20's in Handicap. While I had no illusuions or complaints about not finishing second in Handicap too, I found it disheartening that we were both non-competitive in the Handicap side. I think first was well over 2400 (over 800 a set). I find it hard to believe one can average over 255 scratch and not be competitive in Handicap as well. To me, that shows that something is broken. Now maybe I am having a Gizmo moment here, and I will get flamed for this, but I am willing to take it. I don't mind giving handicap, but to me this shows that something is out of whack.

Maybe its my understanding of the word PRO...
This is just me but it means you are the best and are entitle to certain benefits.. 
Amateurs dont have the right to participate in professional event so why should they be allow to participate in Amateur events...