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Author Topic: Professionals at ABC and WIBC  (Read 2045 times)

Pinbuster

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Professionals at ABC and WIBC
« on: May 13, 2004, 05:56:24 PM »
Watching the WIBC tournament the other day got me thinking about differences in the ABC and WIBC tournaments regarding the professionals.

At the ABC national tournament national touring PBA pros are not allowed to compete in the regular tournament. A national touring pro is one that bowled in a least 10 tournaments the previous year including the Masters and the US open.

Regional professionals are allowed to compete but only 2 can bowl on one team and I don’t believe they can be doubles partners.

I’m not sure of the restrictions in the WIBC tournament (I believe the same as the men with maximum of 2 per team and 1 per double event) but obviously national touring PWBA members are allowed to bowl in the tournament. Granted the PWBA no longer exist but they were before as well. Wendy McPherson’s team came in the other day and took over the lead in the team event.

It seems to me the women professionals have an even larger advantage over the amateur field than the men professionals would have.

A few questions come to mind.

Should the WIBC regular events be open to national touring (former) PWBA members?

Should national touring PBA members be allowed to bowl in the ABC main tournament?

If they are truly open tournaments then why restrict the teams to 2 members? I know of several teams in the ABC tournament that consist of professional amateurs spread across the country that only bowl together once a year at the ABC national tournament, how is this much different than allowing 5 PBA members to bowl together?

It seems like if professionals are to be banned then they should be completely banned. If they are allowed in then they should have the same rights to build a team as others.
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Summer_68

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Re: Professionals at ABC and WIBC
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2004, 09:30:32 AM »
I completely agree. I think they should be allowed to bowl without restrictions. And, I'm not using this as an arguement for it, but it would give Joe Bowler a real indication of how his game (and his team's) really stacks up against professionals on challenging conditions.
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DanH78

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Re: Professionals at ABC and WIBC
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2004, 09:46:56 AM »
Then what is the point of the Masters?  I know I'm not good enough to Run with the PBA guys and at this point I have no desire to bowl against them because I know that 99 times out of 100 I'm going to lose.

And I think Tim Mack is a prime example of the best amatuers not being as good as the PBA bowlers.  Are the Team USA guys usually at the top of the leader boards?  Yes, but they don't always win.  I'm pretty sure the only Team USA Eagle last year went to Derek Sapp and Sean Rash.  This year, it looks like all the leaders are true amatuers.  

I think if they started to allow PBA members to stack teams that tournament entries would drop.
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MoRich

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Re: Professionals at ABC and WIBC
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2004, 01:18:14 PM »
Actaully Tim Mack bowled pretty well for someone who didn't bowl all the events.  I truely believe Timmy would be in the top 10-15 if bowled full time on tour.  He just makes so much money at amateur tournaments and enjoys the atmospere's around them.  I remember when the best amatuers in the world were nearly as good the anyone on the PBA.  Chris Barnes, Rudy, Patrick Healy, Kurt Pilon, etc...   They all got forced out of the Roller and Eliminator and were forced to turn pro.  I think it was unfair, but that's what happen.  My whole point is that outside the top 8 or so PBA players, the amatuers around the country are just as good.
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Pinbuster

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Re: Professionals at ABC and WIBC
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2004, 01:28:02 PM »
MoRich – Mack bowled in 16 events out of about 20 he was eligible for. He missed the first couple of events of the fall swing if I remember correctly. Whether he would have made the top 50 is he had bowled all the tournaments is subject for debate. But he bowled a pretty full schedule.
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Pinbuster

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Re: Professionals at ABC and WIBC
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2004, 01:45:15 PM »
As a side light, at nationals our companion team had two PBA national rookies on it. They were able to bowl because they only had 9 events in the previous calendar year. Both had done reasonably well but will have to go to the tour trials.

They struggled on the national shot. They particularly struggled in the team event and stated to me that it was a tougher fresh shot for them than anything they had bowled on all year.  

Now they still out bowled me but it can and does show that not necessarily all the touring professionals would kill the ABC shot. I seriously doubt if any could top what is leading singles and probably not doubles. We saw what Chris Johnson did in all events.

Bob while I see you point on the team event (and I really do agree with it) I don’t see were that is a lot different than what I have seen with a group of the top “amateurs” from around the nation forming a team and bowling together in doubles or even like the English national team coming over. There isn’t a good way to police it so you have to let it stand.
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ThongPrincess

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Re: Professionals at ABC and WIBC
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2004, 03:22:46 PM »
Just a note on WIBC vs ABC Nationals.  WIBC is divided into 5 average determined divisions while ABC is divided in 180 and under (singles) and 181 and over.  If I recall correctly, WIBC is also handicaped while ABC is scratch.  

Just some information that may or may not add to the comments.
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LuvThatWhiteDot

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Re: Professionals at ABC and WIBC
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2004, 09:38:00 AM »
quote:
If I recall correctly, WIBC is also handicaped while ABC is scratch.


WIBC is scratch.  I saw nothing regarding handicrap in the tournament rules; it only mentions divisions.

I haven't bowled since '99 (I go to ABC instead, because in my group I have guy friends who want to bowl and as of this writing they can't bowl WIBC) but when I last bowled it was definitely scratch with a bunch of divisions.
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MoRich

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Re: Professionals at ABC and WIBC
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2004, 03:00:07 PM »
I understand Tim only missed 4 events, but if he bowls those 4 he definetely makes the top 50.  Also, he bowled much better in the first swing... My guess is he got a little tired and wasn't used to the schedule and number of games.  I am telling you Timmy is good enough to succeed on the national tour.  If this had been his second full year, he would have done much better.  But we will never know.
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ThongPrincess

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Re: Professionals at ABC and WIBC
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2004, 04:06:52 PM »
I have only bowled 1 WIBC Nationals and quite a few other WIBC sanctioned tournaments, most with divisions and handicap.  I was not certain about Nationals, thanks for the clarification.
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michelle

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Re: Professionals at ABC and WIBC
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2004, 08:54:15 PM »
I'm not sure who was on Wendy's team, but keep in mind that there is a ton of talent out there that has not toured in a few years.  The distinction is based on who has toured full-time in the past year, and a team is limited to two such players.

Maybe I should have paid more attention to who was bowling, but what I saw during team when I was watching was a couple of teams that had former touring players, but who had not been out full-time for at least two or three seasons.  

Suffice it to say though that the question of what limitations would be in place in future years was broached when we were bowling...none of us were throwing the ball real well so we peppered Jan with questions instead  

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Pinbuster

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Re: Professionals at ABC and WIBC
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2004, 09:04:50 AM »
Going with what Michelle said.

Carolyn Dorin-Ballard and Lynda Barnes are leading the classic doubles. Lynda (Chris Barnes wife) is a former team USA member and I believe she toured a year or two as well. A pretty strong duo.
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michelle

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Re: Professionals at ABC and WIBC
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2004, 11:10:18 AM »
quote:
Going with what Michelle said.

Carolyn Dorin-Ballard and Lynda Barnes are leading the classic doubles. Lynda (Chris Barnes wife) is a former team USA member and I believe she toured a year or two as well. A pretty strong duo.


but...Lynda has not bowled more than a few events over the past several years.  In other words, from a competition standpoint, she is no different than any other exceptionally talented league bowler.

When you sign up to bowl in Classic, you know ahead of time that you are going toe to toe with that sort of competition.  It would be no different than seeing Aleta Sill and Michelle Mullen on the same pair.  Yes, both toured in the past, but neither has for quite some time...

I'm not sure how ABC is structured, but I seem to recall it is basically two divisions.  WIBC has something like five divisions, so it is not as if the 180 bowler has to beat the touring players.  And, I saw a number of touring and former touring players that struggled with the team shot while others who had never set foot even in a regional event came out and just whacked 'em.
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cgilyeat

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Re: Professionals at ABC and WIBC
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2004, 12:19:54 PM »
michelle,  correct, the ABCs have two divisions, 180 and under 181 and above.  Teams are limited to two professionals (neither having bowled in 10 or more National or Senior events during the previous year) and 1 per doubles.

Edited on 5/19/2004 12:18 PM
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