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Author Topic: ABC's UPDATED answer to the interesting rules question  (Read 2777 times)

golfnutFL

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ABC's UPDATED answer to the interesting rules question
« on: March 29, 2004, 02:54:48 AM »
This is the rules question I posted a couple of days ago. The link is to the original post and the BR readers interpretations.  ABC disagreed with all of us!! At the bottom I posted my follow-up question to their interpretation.

http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=50215&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5

Question: A bowler on team A throws his first shot and leaves a split.
He turns around and when he looks up the split is gone and he has a
2-pin leave remaining. No one on either team is sure if the pin fell
legally or was knocked down by the pinsetter. The bowler throws his 2nd
shot and picks up the spare. Ultimately the game is decided by 5 pins
and team A wins. At the completion of the game a bowler from an adjacent
lane says to a member of team "B" that they would have won had the
pinsetter not knocked down the split and that the pin should have been
reset.  Much discussion takes place.  It is determined that the split
will now, after the game is complete, be reset and the bowler will have
to shoot at the split. He does, he misses, his score is altered and team
"B" wins. What is the correct call in this situation? And, what should
be done to the results of that game?

Date Submited:  3/26/2004
 


This is in reference to your email dated 03/26/04.


According to Rule 10 (see below) a provisional ball is rolled when
there is a question regarding legal pinfall. The two separate scores are
kept, taken before the league board of directors, and then they by a
majority vote decide which score stands.  Therefore, based upon the
scenario presented in your email the league was correct to reset the pin
up and have him shoot the spare.  However, the two scoresheets should
have been taken before the league's board for a decision.


"Legal Pinfall
Rule 6a. Pins to be credited to a player following a legal delivery
shall include:
1  Pins knocked down or off the pin deck by the ball or another pin.
2.  Pins knocked down or off the pin deck by a pin rebounding from a
side partition or rear cushion.
3.  Pins knocked down or off the pin deck by a pin rebounding from the
sweep bar when it is at rest on the pin deck before sweeping dead wood
from the pin deck.
4.  Pins that lean and touch the kickback or side partition.
All such pins are termed dead wood and must be removed before the next
delivery.
No pins may be conceded and only pins actually knocked down or moved
entirely off the playing surface of the lane as a result of a legal
delivery may be counted.

Illegal Pinfall
Rule 6b. When any of the following occur the delivery counts but the
resulting pinfall does not:
1.  A ball leaves the lane before reaching the pins.
2.  A ball rebounds from the rear cushion.
3.  A pin rebounds after coming in contact with the body, arms or legs
of a human pinsetter.
4.  A pin is touched by mechanical pinsetting equipment.
5.  Any pin knocked down when dead wood is being removed.
6.  Any pin knocked down by a human pinsetter.
7.  The player commits a foul.
8.  A delivery is made with dead wood on the lane or in the gutter and
the ball contacts such dead wood before leaving the lane surface.
If illegal pinfall occurs and the player is entitled to additional
deliveries in the frame, the pin(s) illegally knocked down must be
respotted where they originally stood before delivery of the ball.

Provisional Ball
Rule 10. A provisional ball or frame shall be bowled when a protest
involving a foul, legal pinfall or a dead ball is made and cannot be
resolved by the two team captains or a tournament official.
The following procedures apply when a dispute occurs:
a.  For the first ball of any frame, or after the second ball in the
tenth frame if the first ball was a strike:
  1.  Foul: The player shall complete the frame and then bowl one
provisional ball at a full setup of pins.
  2.  Illegal Pinfall: The player shall complete the frame and then
bowl one provisional ball at the same setup which would have remained
standing had the disputed pin(s) not have fallen.
  3.Dead Ball: The player shall complete the frame and then bowl a
complete provisional frame.
b.  On a spare attempt or the third ball of the tenth frame:
  1.  Foul and Illegal Pinfall: No provisional ball is necessary.
  2.  Dead Ball: A provisional ball shall be bowled at the same setup
which was standing when the disputed ball was bowled.
The scoresheet and a record of both scores for the frame which the
provisional delivery was made shall be kept. The protest must be
referred to the league board of directors or tournament managing
committee for a decision. If they are unable to make a decision, the
local association or Congress can be asked for a decision on submission
of the facts relating to the protest."

Feel free to contact us should you have additional questions regarding
this matter by replying to this e-mail.
 
Sincerely,
 
Gary Brown
Rules Staff
 
www.bowlingrulebook.com is your source for rules, specifications and
other resources focused on the issues that govern the sport of bowling.

 Gary,
I understand the interpretation but I do have one question.
 
2.  Illegal Pinfall: The player shall complete the frame and then
bowl one provisional ball at the same setup which would have remained
standing had the disputed pin(s) not have fallen.
 
Does bowling the provisional at the end of the game make a difference? It seems to me that the provisional should have been bowled immediately after the spare attempt, not after the game was over.


Let's see if the timing of the provisional makes any difference, from Gary's response it appears not but I'll keep you posted on his reply




Edited on 3/30/2004 1:48 PM

 

da Shiv

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Re: ABC's UPDATED answer to the interesting rules question
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2004, 08:14:50 AM »
quote:
Provisional Ball
Rule 10. A provisional ball or frame shall be bowled when a protest
involving a foul, legal pinfall or a dead ball is made and cannot be
resolved by the two team captains or a tournament official.
 


It seems to me that the issue WAS "resolved by the team captains" during the original discussion.  It may not have been resolved correctly, but it was resolved, and I still think the decision made at the time should stand.  The supposed "witness," who waited until the end of the game to speak up may have a stake in the outcome, and speaking up so late makes him especially suspect.

If the ABC interpreted your scenario correctly and confirms that in their next response to you, then they should make that CRYSTAL CLEAR in the rule book, because in my opinion it is not at all clear now.  I've been involved in several situations where this sort of thing occurred, and the decision has always been to go with whatever was decided by the captains of the involved teams at the time the incident occurred.  I've never known a case where the two involved captains were unable to come to an agreement, but I can easily see that happening.  In a case like this, though, where the captains DID come to an agreement, it seems to me that that agreement should stand.  

If the rules really do call for a "provisional ball" and a discussion by the league board of directors about which score should stand--oh, boy....
Lots of possibilities for rancor and mayhem there.

Shiv
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Forever let us hold our banner high

Edited on 3/30/2004 9:09 AM

Edited on 3/30/2004 9:10 AM
Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top

charlest

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Re: ABC's UPDATED answer to the interesting rules question
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2004, 09:30:41 AM »
Bah! I typed a long reply/comment to this, but somethings are better left unsaid.
--------------------
"We get old too fast, and too late, smart."
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

golfnutFL

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Re: ABC's UPDATED answer to the interesting rules question
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2004, 12:51:43 PM »
Here is Gary's response to my follow-up question.  

This is in reference to your email dated 03/29/04.

The provisional ball is not required to be thrown immediately.  The
board of directors after a meeting could request that the 2nd delivery
be reset and attempted.  Then as mentioned before they would take both
sets of scores to the board and let it decide which score stands.  Any
decision of that board could be appealed to the local association or
ABC/WIBC within the timelimts outlined in Rule 119.


Feel free to contact us should you have additional questions regarding
this matter by replying to this e-mail.
 
Sincerely,
 
Gary Brown
Rules Staff



So, all of us here at BR (including me) that think the RIGHT thing to do once the game is complete is nothing have been corrected by the ABC rules staff.

I do UNDERSTAND the ruling, correcting a wrong is correcting a wrong I guess, better later than never.  It just seems that once a game is complete that should be it, the situation should have been corrected when it occurred IMO.

Oh well, live and learn.

charlest

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Re: ABC's UPDATED answer to the interesting rules question
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2004, 01:03:46 PM »
There's an old saying that seems applicable to this situation:
"Justice delayed is justice denied."

If what happened to you, golfnut, and the ABC "ruling" got around, I can see lots of people doing and saying something like this: "Oh, back in the 3rd frame of the 2nd game, bowler #2's split had the 4 pin fall down. Well, I think the machine touched it. After we're finished bowling these 3 games, we will have them set up the 4/6/10 (the bowler had left the 6/10 and made it) and see if you can convert the 4/6/10. Then we'll take the 2 scores to the board & see what they say."

--------------------
"We get old too fast, and too late, smart."


Edited on 3/30/2004 1:57 PM
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

jimsey

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Re: ABC's UPDATED answer to the interesting rules question
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2004, 01:06:16 PM »
Golfnut

There is no time limit on correcting an error in scoring.  If both captains agreed to let the original score stand and admitted not having seen the pin fall, the provisional ball would have been required so that the league board would have an alternative if it decided that the split was correct based upon someone from another team who witnessed the actual pinfall.  It's too bad that he hadn't spoken up at the time and resolved the issue then and there but he may have felt it didn't make a difference.  When he realized that it in fact changed the outcome of the game, he spoke up and made the score a league issue.
Good luck getting this right.

da Shiv

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Re: ABC's UPDATED answer to the interesting rules question
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2004, 01:37:43 PM »
If the ABC is interpreting it's own rule correctly--and I still have my doubts--then that rule needs to be changed.  Situations such as the one pointed out by charlest could easily become commonplace, especially if the first time it is invoked produces ill-feeling.  "Revenge" or "pay-back" invocations of this rule could start to fly and the whole league disintegrate into chaos.

A situation like the one golfnutFL presented needs to be resolved immediately, even if there is a minor delay.  No other sports have "do-overs" sometime later in the game, or especially AFTER the game is completed...and based upon a comment by a non-participant in the game in question.

Shiv
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Forever let us hold our banner high
Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top

golfnutFL

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Re: ABC's UPDATED answer to the interesting rules question
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2004, 01:42:51 PM »
This my Tuesday Night league.  I do not bowl on team A or B but a friend of mine does.  This occured about 6 lanes from me and he came over to ask me about it.  The 2 teams were in 7th and 9th place, out of 32 teams.  The guy who reported it afterwards is on the team in 14th place. Maybe he had a friend on team B or just didn't think it would make a difference and then afterwards realized that it did make a difference. So, I don't know what his true motivation was. I e-mailed all of my correspondence with the ABC to my friend but I really don't think that he would win any rulings. ABC was pretty clear about no time limit for the provisional, which to me, as charlest stated, is a nightmare scenario.  If more people knew the interpretation of this rule we'd have people bowling provisionals constantly, and protesting shots constantly. I think that this rule needs some sort of closure/time limit clause.

charlest

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Re: ABC's UPDATED answer to the interesting rules question
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2004, 03:16:43 PM »
golfnut,

I'm almost sorry I stated it the way I did. I don't like to be confrontational, but that is really the way I feel. Bowlers, even best friends, can get very testy and touchy about bowling scores, almost as much as they do over girl friends and wives.

"It's only a game."  .... Ha!
--------------------
"We get old too fast, and too late, smart."
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

golfnutFL

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Re: ABC's UPDATED answer to the interesting rules question
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2004, 03:22:03 PM »
Charlest,
I'm glad you stated what you did and how you did.  Your point is very valid. If this ruling "got around" it would be very bad for bowling.  I really think it would snowball into confrontations frequently, that's why I think ABC needs to clarify/limit the scope of this rule.

Ol Stranker

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Re: ABC's UPDATED answer to the interesting rules question
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2004, 10:42:14 PM »
It seems to me that if nobody saw the pinsetter breakup the split you can't say for sure that the pinsetter interfered.  When this kind of thing occurs with the team I'm on or the opponents, we just play on, and say, "If you didn't see the inteference, pay closer attention".

golfnutFL

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Re: ABC's UPDATED answer to the interesting rules question
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2004, 12:15:26 PM »
Ol Stranker,
But somebody did see it, he was bowling on the next set of lanes. He just didn't say anything until after the game was over.