Author Topic: Pin Carry (Read 7163 times)

tank38 · « **on:** March 07, 2016, 10:50:44 AM »

Can bad pin carry be attributed to just bad luck?

I bowled in a tournament this past weekend and actually for much of this year in league bowling my pin carry has been horrible. I'm leaving everything on the back row with a bunch of 4 pins added in. It's been a really frustrating year.

avabob · « **Reply #16 on:** March 27, 2016, 08:08:56 PM »

When I say preserving energy I am talking about today's environment where there is lots of friction and balls are more likely to burn early. The frozen rope scenario was very common in the old rubber and plastic ball era and often resulted in 5-7 split. Difference between releasing energy to early or not at all doesn't change amount of deflection but does change entry angle. This is the point where we can explain why the soft 7-10 has replaced the 5-7 as the most common light pocket split

avabob · « **Reply #17 on:** March 27, 2016, 09:00:30 PM »

IC: On further thought we may be saying the same thing. When I talk about preserving rotational energy I am saying it in the context that such energy will be released, just not too early. Release of rotational energy creates the momentum you are referring to.

In todays environment of high friction balls it is very uncommon to see the frozen rope that never comes out of a skid like we use to see in the old days. I was assuming that on almost any condition we encounter today, the energy will be released causing change of direction.

ICDeadMoney · « **Reply #18 on:** March 27, 2016, 09:05:39 PM »

Quote from: avabob on March 27, 2016, 08:08:56 PM

When I say preserving energy I am talking about today's environment where there is lots of friction and balls are more likely to burn early. The frozen rope scenario was very common in the old rubber and plastic ball era and often resulted in 5-7 split. Difference between releasing energy to early or not at all doesn't change amount of deflection but does change entry angle. This is the point where we can explain why the soft 7-10 has replaced the 5-7 as the most common light pocket split

The ball doesn't release any energy, it converts the energy into another form.

What you usually think of as releasing energy, is the ball increasing it's right to left momentum, or reducing it's left to right momentum.

In the process of the momentum change, there is also a decrease in axis of rotation.

If the energy is released too soon, momentum is still created, but if the ball runs back into the wall of oil, the ball has to fight gravity, and decreasing friction to climb up the wall of oil. If it can't make it up that hill, the ball slides back down (to the right) eliminating any momentum gained.

If you pitch the ball far enough away from the oil, depending on how much "energy" you put in the ball to begin with, the ball will create momentum, but unless you put just the right amount it, you're going to miss the pocket left or right.

The modern ball needs that wall of oil, or a very accurate bowler to hit the pocket well.

The surface of a modern ball can generate a significant amount of momentum, which allows the bowler to get away with more light pocket hits, which widens that person's concept of what is the pocket.

Most of your weak hits now come from bad location in the pocket.

Problem is most people seem to think if your ball hits both the 1 pin, and the 3 pin, that qualifies it as having hit the pocket.

If your carry is bad, throw the ball better, if you have to change balls to make a difference at the pins, you're bowling on too easy of an oil pattern.

It may not seem too easy for you that night, but for one of the other guys... his mistakes (much like your adjustments) aren't making any difference at the pins, so he scores high.

spmcgivern · « **Reply #19 on:** March 28, 2016, 08:31:39 AM »

Maybe I am an idiot, but how does a coverstock generate momentum? I can see perhaps a frictional force in the entire equation of what is being discussed. But momentum is calculated by mass x velocity. And those are both components of the bowling ball, not just the coverstock.

ICDeadMoney · « **Reply #20 on:** March 28, 2016, 09:22:45 AM »

Quote from: spmcgivern on March 28, 2016, 08:31:39 AM

Maybe I am an idiot, but how does a coverstock generate momentum? I can see perhaps a frictional force in the entire equation of what is being discussed. But momentum is calculated by mass x velocity. And those are both components of the bowling ball, not just the coverstock.

Go drag racing, but take the tires off your car so you're riding on just the rims.

Good luck generating momentum.

Plastic ball is similar to rims, reactive resin is similar to racing slicks.

How much momentum does the ball have (in a right the left direction) when you release to ball in a left to right direction? Some negative amount.

How much momentum do you want the ball to have (in a right to left direction) when you hit the head pin. Some positive amount.

You the bowler have to provide that energy into the ball to create that momentum, cover stock is related to the co efficient of friction, which factors into how efficient that energy is converted to momentum.

When people complain that their ball burned up, they simply didn't put enough into the ball to create what they needed out of the ball.

spmcgivern · « **Reply #21 on:** March 28, 2016, 09:52:33 AM »

Quote from: ICDeadMoney on March 28, 2016, 09:22:45 AM

Quote from: spmcgivern on March 28, 2016, 08:31:39 AM
Maybe I am an idiot, but how does a coverstock generate momentum? I can see perhaps a frictional force in the entire equation of what is being discussed. But momentum is calculated by mass x velocity. And those are both components of the bowling ball, not just the coverstock.

Go drag racing, but take the tires off your car so you're riding on just the rims.

Good luck generating momentum.

Plastic ball is similar to rims, reactive resin is similar to racing slicks.

How much momentum does the ball have (in a right the left direction) when you release to ball in a left to right direction? Some negative amount.

How much momentum do you want the ball to have (in a right to left direction) when you hit the head pin. Some positive amount.

You the bowler have to provide that energy into the ball to create that momentum, cover stock is related to the co efficient of friction, which factors into how efficient that energy is converted to momentum.

When people complain that their ball burned up, they simply didn't put enough into the ball to create what they needed out of the ball.

I think you have the concept of momentum confused with something else. Momentum of a 15-pound traveling 18 mph at an entry angle of 4Â° is the exact same as a 15-pound Alpha Crux traveling 18 mph at an entry angle of 4Â°.

Coverstocks, as with tires, generate frictional forces with the surface they are being used on.

ICDeadMoney · « **Reply #22 on:** March 28, 2016, 10:23:57 AM »

Quote from: spmcgivern on March 28, 2016, 09:52:33 AM

I think you have the concept of momentum confused with something else. Momentum of a 15-pound traveling 18 mph at an entry angle of 4Â° is the exact same as a 15-pound Alpha Crux traveling 18 mph at an entry angle of 4Â°.

Coverstocks, as with tires, generate frictional forces with the surface they are being used on.

You don't release the ball with a 4Â° entry angle, you have to do something to the ball to create that angle.

What you have to do to a plastic ball is far different than what you have to do to a resin ball to achieve the same results.

avabob · « **Reply #23 on:** March 28, 2016, 10:33:26 AM »

Balls burn up when friction totally overcomes skid. More revs will not slow down the burnout as a ball changes direction. However more speed will. The coefficient of friction between lane surface and balls is much higher than it was with the older balls and softer lane surfaces.

What more revs will do is make a ball change direction with less reduction in ball speed than the same amount of direction change with lower revs.

spmcgivern · « **Reply #24 on:** March 28, 2016, 10:34:46 AM »

Quote from: ICDeadMoney on March 28, 2016, 10:23:57 AM

Quote from: spmcgivern on March 28, 2016, 09:52:33 AM
I think you have the concept of momentum confused with something else. Momentum of a 15-pound traveling 18 mph at an entry angle of 4Â° is the exact same as a 15-pound Alpha Crux traveling 18 mph at an entry angle of 4Â°.

Coverstocks, as with tires, generate frictional forces with the surface they are being used on.

You don't release the ball with a 4Â° entry angle, you have to do something to the ball to create that angle.

What you have to do to a plastic ball is far different than what you have to do to a resin ball to achieve the same results.

You're right. The angle of entry has no bearing on the momentum of the bowling ball. Thanks for correcting that. Here is my revised statement:

I think you have the concept of momentum confused with something else. Momentum of a 15-pound traveling 18 mph is the exact same as a 15-pound Alpha Crux traveling 18 mph.

Coverstocks, as with tires, generate frictional forces with the surface they are being used on.

ICDeadMoney · « **Reply #25 on:** March 28, 2016, 10:46:14 AM »

Quote from: spmcgivern on March 28, 2016, 10:34:46 AM

Quote from: ICDeadMoney on March 28, 2016, 10:23:57 AM
Quote from: spmcgivern on March 28, 2016, 09:52:33 AM
I think you have the concept of momentum confused with something else. Momentum of a 15-pound traveling 18 mph at an entry angle of 4Â° is the exact same as a 15-pound Alpha Crux traveling 18 mph at an entry angle of 4Â°.

Coverstocks, as with tires, generate frictional forces with the surface they are being used on.

You don't release the ball with a 4Â° entry angle, you have to do something to the ball to create that angle.

What you have to do to a plastic ball is far different than what you have to do to a resin ball to achieve the same results.

You're right. The angle of entry has no bearing on the momentum of the bowling ball. Thanks for correcting that. Here is my revised statement:

I think you have the concept of momentum confused with something else. Momentum of a 15-pound traveling 18 mph is the exact same as a 15-pound Alpha Crux traveling 18 mph.

Coverstocks, as with tires, generate frictional forces with the surface they are being used on.

Other than "Yeah, you're right", your response has nothing to do with what I typed.

Nowhere did I say that momentum was independent of angle of entry.

So rather than dispute what I DID say, you misinterpret it, and then claim the misinterpretation is incorrect.

I guess that earns you a point your imaginary debate club.

spmcgivern · « **Reply #26 on:** March 28, 2016, 10:59:26 AM »

What I am trying to say is you are claiming friction as a momentum when it is a force. The momentum of the two balls I had are the same so using momentum as an argument is incorrect.

Momentum is at its maximum when the ball leaves the bowler's hand (maximum velocity and constant mass). As the ball moves down the lane, frictional forces act upon the ball causing the ball to change its direction. Depending on the ball and lane conditions, these frictional forces can be small or large. You can measure the momentum at any particular point on the ball's path, but that value is independent of the forces being acted upon it.

All the forces acting upon the ball (friction, gravity, air, rotational) change the momentum as the ball travels.

ICDeadMoney · « **Reply #27 on:** March 28, 2016, 11:16:58 AM »

Quote from: spmcgivern on March 28, 2016, 10:59:26 AM

What I am trying to say is you are claiming friction as a momentum when it is a force. The momentum of the two balls I had are the same so using momentum as an argument is incorrect.

Momentum is at its maximum when the ball leaves the bowler's hand (maximum velocity and constant mass). As the ball moves down the lane, frictional forces act upon the ball causing the ball to change its direction. Depending on the ball and lane conditions, these frictional forces can be small or large. You can measure the momentum at any particular point on the ball's path, but that value is independent of the forces being acted upon it.

All the forces acting upon the ball (friction, gravity, air, rotational) change the momentum as the ball travels.

Momentum is a vector, it has two components, much like a rectangle had a width and a length.

The length portion of Momentum alone isn't really significant when it comes to pin carry.

The width portion, the right to left movement, increases as the ball changed direction. That portion of momentum is VERY important when it comes to pin carry.

The ratio of the width to the length tells you the angle of entry.

The measurement of the diagonal of the rectangle is the magnitude of the momentum.

Yes, the magnitude of momentum is at its maximum when the ball is released, but that says nothing about pin carry.

Cover stock effects how much right to left momentum the ball will obtain due to the different coefficient of friction.

Thats a factor in the conversation from revs, and axis of rotation into right to left momentum.

Once the ball has achieved that momentum, then your idea of 15 pound plastic ball at 4* entry angle has the same momentum as 15 pound ball resin ball at 4* entry angle, if they are both traveling at the same magnitude of velocity.

My comment about cover stock was in relation to the creation process of momentum.

Author Topic: Pin Carry (Read 7163 times)

tank38

Pin Carry

avabob

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avabob

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ICDeadMoney

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spmcgivern

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ICDeadMoney

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spmcgivern

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ICDeadMoney

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avabob

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spmcgivern

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ICDeadMoney

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spmcgivern

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ICDeadMoney

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