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Author Topic: Here is one for you guys to debate  (Read 2853 times)

The Hose

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Here is one for you guys to debate
« on: May 11, 2003, 11:10:17 PM »
Last night a young man started with the front 6. then he hung a 10 pin and nobody saw what happend. when everyone looked it had fallen. nobody had seen it fall so they stood the pin back up and made him shoot the spare. He spared it and then doubled setting up the 10th frame. His mother, who was also the league director, called a meeting and got everyone to say it was ok to change the score back to a strike. the guy then got the first 2 and 8 counted for a 298.

now does that sound like a bunch of bull sh!! or what. has anyone else ever heard of anything like this happening?

 

The Hose

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Re: Here is one for you guys to debate
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2003, 02:20:03 PM »
BTW, this was copied off the PBA website.

Nicanor

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Re: Here is one for you guys to debate
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2003, 03:33:45 PM »
Did anyone see the rack knock it down?

V/R,
Nicanor
Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)

jimsey

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Re: Here is one for you guys to debate
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2003, 02:11:17 PM »
Hose

what they ended up doing, intentionally or unintentionally, is in fact the correct procedure.  Shooting the spare would constitute a provisional ball, an allowable occurrence when a scoring question is involved.  If no one saw the pin fall or get knocked down by the rack or sweeper, it would be impossible to determine why the pin was not reset automatically.  The correct thing to do is to call a league meeting to determine the correct solution.  Neither solution in this case could be considered wrong.

The Hose

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Re: Here is one for you guys to debate
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2003, 02:37:34 PM »
It just doesn't seem right for this guy to have a six bagger, 9/.  Then all over a sudden he gets the next two then he and his mother decide to have a meeting about it.  I wasn't there and don't know what happened during the discussion as to reset the pin to begin with.  I could maybe see your point if there was a meeting and they declared a provisional, and let him shoot a new rack but with him excepting the 10 and shooting his spare, I don't think he should be allowed an award.

You can view some of this on the pba website under MISC.

jimsey

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Re: Here is one for you guys to debate
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2003, 07:45:47 AM »
Hose and Peri

I agree that the  circumstances of a mother and son may be questionable, however the provisional ball and meeting to determine the correct score at a later time is the correct decision no matter who is bowling.  I've seen many bowlers turn and walk away after leaving a solid 8, 9, or 10 pin and then have the pin fall without them seeing it.  I have covered the 4,6,7,10 split and never saw the ball hit any of the pins although I was fortunate enough to have someone else witness it.  If no one actually saw what caused the pin to fall, we will never know exactly what happened.  The only assumptions that can be made is that the rack knocked the pin down if there is a mutual agreement that the pin was moved far enough off spot so that the pin setter could not properly pick it up.  Other than that, only a psychic could tell you what happened.

A provisional ball is allowed anytime there is a dispute over a foul, legal pinfall, or a dead ball and agreement cannot be reached by the two team captains or a tournament official. The protest is then referred to the league board of directors or the tournament management committee for a decision.  If necessary, the matter can be be brought to the local association or ABC for a determination. (rule 10, ABC general playing rules)

The Hose

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Re: Here is one for you guys to debate
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2003, 07:52:51 AM »
Wouldn't he have had to re-shoot the provisional?  From what I read, this was never done.  The mother got everyone to agree to give him a strike thus allowing him a chance at an honor score.  


jimsey

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Re: Here is one for you guys to debate
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2003, 08:52:44 AM »
Hose  - The provisional is actually the respotting of the ten pin and the subsequent spare conversion.  The determination that had to be made is if the first delivery actually resulted in a strike or if in fact the ten pin remained and the provisional ball resulted in the spare.  There does not appear to be a dispute over the fact that a legal first ball was executed, merely the result.

Peri  -  you're right, logic would dictate that the best solution is the the issue of correct scoring be brought up immediately.  However, in any situation where a judgement (correct pinfall in this case) may be protested, the protest/appeal may be filed within 15 days of the series having been bowled.  This often happens when someone reads through a rule book after the fact and suddenly finds a rule that may apply.  Often, the appeal process works quite well since the league will make the decision rather than just one individual making the call.

It's unfortunate that the two main individuals are mother and son.  If they had not been related, the situation might have been a little more clear cut.  Also, there still seem to be several facts missing that could contribute to the decision.  From the limited information available here, it appears that the correct procedures were followed and ultimately the correct, although questionable, decision was made.  In any situation like this it is best to get as much specific information as possible prior to holding a league meeting to vote on an outcome.

The Hose

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Re: Here is one for you guys to debate
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2003, 06:21:19 AM »
Bullred, I pulled this off of the PBA site.  It was around the Dallas area.  I had no idea what the rule was on something like this and wanted some input from this board.  Wouldn't the same thing apply if it was done in a scratch league?
I'm going back to the traveling league in Tulsa next year.  It's a 45 minute drive and on Friday night, but I'll get a chance to bowl with some pretty good bowlers.