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Author Topic: 14 vs 15 pounds...  (Read 11685 times)

TamerBowling

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14 vs 15 pounds...
« on: November 09, 2014, 06:34:25 PM »
I had written about 15 vs 16 pounds some time ago.  There isn't much controversy over that as it were.
http://tamerbowling.com/bowlingball-15-or-16-pounds/

Now my long battle with a recurring torn bicep has finally led me to 14 pounds.  I thought it might be worth sharing my journey through this difficult time and frankly, difficult decision.

http://tamerbowling.com/bowlingball-14-vs-15-pound/

Spoiler alert...I'm very happy I made the switch.  There are some differences that should be noted if you choose to follow suit.  I tried to capture much of what I learned with the switch in hopes it would help anyone else who may be considering switching to 14 pounds. 

Let me know what you think...
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charlest

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Re: 14 vs 15 pounds...
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2014, 09:59:59 PM »
Thank you. Good summary.
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

scotts33

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Re: 14 vs 15 pounds...
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2014, 06:14:03 AM »
Agreed very good explanation.  I found the same and have dropped to 14's about 5 tears ago.  No ill effects for me.  Picked up about 1/2 mph.  Took me about 3 months to get timing down to a good performance level.  At 65, I ain't getting any younger and ball speed is one of the most important factors in the modern game. 

One point I would make is that if you plan on going to 14's is to also use a 14 lb. spare ball.  Going back and forth isn't a great idea IMO and could hinder your going forward with 14's. 

I would guess right now there are more 14's manufactured than 16's.
Scott

Brickguy221

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Re: 14 vs 15 pounds...
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2014, 11:22:16 AM »
I was forced to drop from 14's to 12's after back surgery a year ago and still haven't mastered the swing of such a light weight ball. Still fighting my having a forced swing with 12's. Have just started trying to move up to 13's the past couple of weeks. Based on initial results, I doubt I will be able to go back to 14's though, let alone 15's.
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away"

xrayjay

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Re: 14 vs 15 pounds...
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2014, 12:08:01 PM »
Good read, it helped me understand the opposite.

I went up in weight per coach JustRico. It's been working out really well since the change over the summer. Just better ball motion and better light hit carries for me.

My buddy also dropped to 14 less than a year ago due to his knee injury. He was worried about carry and such too. But, he is actually have the best start of a new season after struggling with 14 the first few months. With a 300 and a pair of 280s and several 270's with a high 700 series to add. He's enjoying the game more nowadays that's for sure....
Does a round object have sides? I say yes, pizza has triangles..

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Dogtown

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Re: 14 vs 15 pounds...
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2014, 01:20:03 PM »
I enjoyed this post.  I don't know that it is necessary to change the layout of a ball based on weight.  Surface prep would probably go a lot further.

The author had to drop down to 14lb due to an injury.  That's completely understandable.  I did the same thing and have noticed similar results.  There is something to be said for pain free bowling.  But, what if there is tactical advantage?

Now, one thing I have learned from JustRico's book, is that perception is NOT always reality.  It's a shame USBC didn't read that before changing the ball drilling rules for no thumb bowlers.  That's another subject.

I would like to know the difference between a 15lb ball traveling at 15mph VS. a 14lb ball traveling at 16mph at the point of impact.  Mainly looking at the force created between the two.  I'll let someone else do the calculations.

While it is true that a 15lb will have more friction than a 14lb, was does that amount to on a 60 foot lane with a THS?  What would be interesting is to see a graph of the two overlapped.

There is a lot of physics at work.  I would imagine under the rights circumstances a 14lb ball could carry better than a 15lb or even a 16lbs.  But to know for sure would take more than just what we perceive to be happening.

EL3MCNEIL

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Re: 14 vs 15 pounds...
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2014, 06:45:29 PM »
I've always thrown 14lbs, but constantly consider going up to 15lbs. The information was very enlightening. I always get crap about not throwing heavier because of the pins I leave on spares. But I am always happy, not satisfied because I always want to be better, with the results.
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bergman

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Re: 14 vs 15 pounds...
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2014, 11:02:21 AM »
Great discussion on this topic.

Regarding the physics, it does get a little complicated but at the risk of simplicity, here goes:

The momentum (p), created by the ball is dependent on the ball's mass (m) and its velocity (v). Momentum is calculated by the formula p= mv.

Comparing the 2 balls, it is important to understand that if the bowler does not apply
any force throughout the swing cycle, but instead, relies on pure gravity, then both
balls will essentially travel down the lane at the same speed. Frictional forces can, but not always, cause the heavier ball to travel a tad slower, but the heavier ball
will also have more momentum, due to its increased mass. So, if we plug in some numbers we can see that the heavier ball will generate more momentum:

p=mv  m=14# & v= 20ft/sec (an arbitrary velocity)
p= 14 x 20= 280 lb-ft/sec

p= mv  m= 15# & v= 20 ft/sec
p=15x20=300lb-ft/sec

However, in determining a ball's hitting power, several other factors must be considered. These include the ball's entry angle, revolutions created by the hand,
core design, pin, ball and kickback coefficients of restitution (their "springiness").
All of these factors are indeed, affected by ball weight when it come to maximizing pin action. Taken together, there is an optimum quantity for each of these factors that will maximize pin carry. The math gets very very detailed here and depending on how each of these numbers play out,  will determine which ball weight will maximize  carry.

Again, at the risk of simplicity, a bowler who can accelerate through their release and who has the longest "time" span between when their thumb releases and when their fingers do, will IN GENERAL, benefit by going to a somewhat lighter ball, if as a result, it creates increased entry angle. Power players will benefit most here.

On the other hand, for those who, by virtue of their release style cannot generate
more "revs" in this fashion, they will almost always benefit by going with a heavier ball.
I fall squarely into this category. I dropped from 16# to 15# a while back and there is no disputing the fact that I had better "carry" with the 16# ball. Age necessitated
the change but if it had not, I would still be throwing 16#.

avabob

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Re: 14 vs 15 pounds...
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2014, 03:59:17 PM »
Most, not all, people who drop from 16 to 15 see no drop off in carry.  The reason is that added revs ( assuming a proper release ) offset the drop in weight.  This combines with increased speed potential which helps offset rollout ( a big issue for many of us on wet dry house patterns ).  When you drop another pound there is still some offset, but each lb you drop gives diminishing returns in terms of increased rev rate.  In addition added speed is not a benefit once you get to a speed vs rev equilibrium. 

Bottom line some people still see no drop in carry going to 14, but the percentage who do is smaller. 

 

Dogtown

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Re: 14 vs 15 pounds...
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2014, 04:18:04 PM »
15mph = 22.00 ft/sec
16mph = 23.46 ft/sec

15 lbs x 22.0 ft/sec = 330 lbs-ft/sec
14 lbs x 23.46 ft/sec = 328.4 lbs-ft/sec

Less than 0.5% difference.  So, if a person drops from 15lb to 14lb AND is able to increase their speed, what's the difference?

I know there is a lot more physics involved.  Revs, angle, friction.....but it is interesting.

I feel (or perceive) that light hits carry better with 14.  I agree with the author that I see more 7 pins.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 05:06:10 PM by Dogtown »

TamerBowling

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Re: 14 vs 15 pounds...
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2014, 06:46:55 PM »
Glad this has triggered good conversation.  I like the last set of calculations by Dogtown  ;)  Anecdotally, I think it's pretty close like I described.

In terms of layouts vs surface adjustments, I'll say this...  I wholly believe that layout differences provide ball reaction shape change whereas surface more or less maintains the same shape but allows for length changes of +/- 2 ft if you are really aggressive.

Using a low RG vs a high RG layout will make a rather large difference in ball reaction.  This is in relative terms of course.  You're not going to turn a Marvel S into a Lights Out and vice-versa.  Low RG layouts will get into a roll sooner but hold onto axis rotation longer.  High RG layouts will cause more lope allowing more length and storage of energy.  This combined with surface adjustments is where you really begin to refine the ball reaction.

Secondarily, I just raised this point because it is important to assess if the change in weight has altered your PAP.  So even if you decide to maintain the same layout, it could look slightly different with a different PAP.

I will also reiterate that switching to an appropriate weight (due to injury, or other reasons) is good for the psyche.  That added peace of mind when feeling healthy is so worth any potential affect on carry, especially when considering the minimal effect we've seen.  For me, constantly worrying about re-injury just put that slight doubt in my mind, which ultimately affects execution.
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Track_Fanatic

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Re: 14 vs 15 pounds...
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2014, 07:31:55 PM »
I do agree about leaving more 7 pins. But for me, my light hits turn into 7-10's.   I have left more solid 8's than I did when i threw 15's

Greazygeo

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Re: 14 vs 15 pounds...
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2014, 07:35:16 PM »
I've pretty much always thrown 14# equipment.  Did try 16# at one point many years ago and it was hard on the elbow. 

The past few years all I've been throwing is urethane stuff.  I have a few newer pieces ( Blue Hammer remake and Rotogrip Grenade) and some older Hammers, Burgundy, Blue Pearl, Purple and a Red.  All these are 14# except for the Red which is 15#.  The layouts are all pretty close as are the surfaces.  The Red hits way harder and carries better than the others.  So I use it basically all the time. 

With the reactive stuff, the carry is every bit as good as the Red.  I think with reactive stuff the weight really doesn't make much difference.  With urethane and plastic I'm thinking the more weight the better. 
2014-15 avg 193  Current arsenal....Faball Red and Brunswick Blue Ringer Solid / Maxim spare ball.

avabob

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Re: 14 vs 15 pounds...
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2014, 12:08:42 PM »
Biggest place added weight helps is on really long patterns like Badger.  I have less margin of error in my release when it comes to carry with my 15 than I would a 16.  More likely to leave an 8-10 or 5-7 if I hit up a bit, or circle the ball too much.