Author Topic: New House using PBA patterns for standard league (Read 1817 times)

swnl · « **on:** September 05, 2008, 09:06:36 AM »

Just wanted to get a feeling from everyone else on this. It is not a sanctioned sport league or PBA experience league. Our first night of bowling and we got a scorpion pattern and the centers manager is passing info out about the shot. I'm like hey wait if I'm going to bowl on sport shots I want a sport shot average. I didn't want to make to many waves the first night. So I just told him about the difference and he is like huh? What should I do? I wouldn't mind bowling on those patterns but, it is a house shot league with just a couple 200 avg. bowlers.

nutsforbowling · « **Reply #1 on:** September 05, 2008, 05:10:07 PM »

If you have ANY integrity you will make sure you are sanctioned as a sport league. To do anything else would be immoral, and I would call it cheating if those averages are used for tourneys.
--------------------
Me stupid. Me believe anything. Please tell me what to do.

Nails · « **Reply #2 on:** September 05, 2008, 05:15:38 PM »

I wish all houses has something like a sport or PBA pattern as their regular shot because it would make us all better in the long run. However, I think it's a terrible practice to use an unofficial pattern such as this for two reasons.

1) Not everyone wants a challenge. The average BR poster is much more hard core than the average league bowler. Many just want a relaxing night of throwing the rock and tossing down a few beers.

2) This has distinct sand bagging implications. Some houses are known for putting down a tough shot. If you only bowl this league in order to keep your average down so you can go to handicap tournaments and clean up, it's sand bagging pure and simple. Read the last sentence carefully before you tell me I'm wrong. If it's your only chance to bowl and you bowl in an occasional handicap event, it's not your fault. If you only to it to gain a competitive advantage, it's cheating.
--------------------
Telling it like it is.

swnl · « **Reply #3 on:** September 05, 2008, 05:19:03 PM »

Thats a good point. Especially if it the only league you bowl in. Is it to late to change the sanction? The league already started.
I really don't think they know what they are doing.

nutsforbowling · « **Reply #4 on:** September 05, 2008, 06:44:39 PM »

quote:
Thats a good point. Especially if it the only league you bowl in. Is it to late to change the sanction? The league already started.
I really don't think they know what they are doing.

It's never too late. If the secretary or the owner don't want to do it, contact your local association and tell them what is going on. It's nice to see that you see there is a problem, we need more people with a little integrity in this game.
--------------------
Me stupid. Me believe anything. Please tell me what to do.

bluerrpilot · « **Reply #5 on:** September 05, 2008, 07:09:23 PM »

I think its great that they put out something more depanding or competative than a THS. But I also think it should be sport sanctioned as well.

If for no other reason than the aveerage comment allready made by nuts. Many people only bowl one league just to establish an ave for tourneys. And if that ave is lowered because of the shots there bowling on its not fair. just like if the ave is inflated because of easy conditions.

And its not too late even for the people that allready paid to sanction. They just have to pay extra for the upgrade to sport
--------------------
"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"

Edited on 9/5/2008 7:10 PM

EagleHunter · « **Reply #6 on:** September 05, 2008, 08:33:16 PM »

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this at all...if EVERY league is going to be bowling on the same condition(s). And certainly no need for the league, or the house for that matter, to certify as Sport.

As has been argued time and again, USBC does NOT own the playing fields. Each playing field is owned and operated by an independent owner or corporation. None of those entities is required to do anything for USBC certification other than making sure its fields and conditions are LEGAL...that is all.

There is no rule stating that the condition at every house has to be the THS that most of us see routinely. Likewise, I would bet you that there are houses out there using conditions that are much tougher than the PBAX conditions...you know the "graveyard" houses. I have yet to hear of any league or house being rerated as Sport because it is a graveyard.

If you are so caught up because the lane condition has a name and marketing attached to it, simply ask the proprietor if he can remove/add a few units in the middle so that it is no longer the prescribed PBAX pattern.

Simply put, there is NOTHING that USBC can or would do about this. They haven't addressed the issue of "graveyards" v. "great wall of china." And there is no way for them to police such a situation anyway. Bottom line, USBC makes the rules...no rules are being broken.

nutsforbowling · « **Reply #7 on:** September 06, 2008, 07:15:04 AM »

quote:
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this at all...if EVERY league is going to be bowling on the same condition(s). And certainly no need for the league, or the house for that matter, to certify as Sport.

As has been argued time and again, USBC does NOT own the playing fields. Each playing field is owned and operated by an independent owner or corporation. None of those entities is required to do anything for USBC certification other than making sure its fields and conditions are LEGAL...that is all.

There is no rule stating that the condition at every house has to be the THS that most of us see routinely. Likewise, I would bet you that there are houses out there using conditions that are much tougher than the PBAX conditions...you know the "graveyard" houses. I have yet to hear of any league or house being rerated as Sport because it is a graveyard.

If you are so caught up because the lane condition has a name and marketing attached to it, simply ask the proprietor if he can remove/add a few units in the middle so that it is no longer the prescribed PBAX pattern.

Simply put, there is NOTHING that USBC can or would do about this. They haven't addressed the issue of "graveyards" v. "great wall of china." And there is no way for them to police such a situation anyway. Bottom line, USBC makes the rules...no rules are being broken.

This is why the USBC need to start rating houses. Like in golf with a slope rating for each course depending on how hard it is. With a rating they could then come up with a conversion table just like they have with the sport averages. You say it doesn't matter, but I guess you would care if someone got handicap for the average they have in the much harder house and then cleaned up on a THS shot. Then you would be calling that same bowler a sandbagger because he beat you with his "harder house" average.
--------------------
Me stupid. Me believe anything. Please tell me what to do.

EagleHunter · « **Reply #8 on:** September 06, 2008, 10:50:47 AM »

quote:
You say it doesn't matter, but I guess you would care if someone got handicap for the average they have in the much harder house and then cleaned up on a THS shot. Then you would be calling that same bowler a sandbagger because he beat you with his "harder house" average.

A sandbagger is one who DELIBERATELY performs at a level less than his/her ability. The situation described here does NOT fall under such a stipulation. Likewise, a bowler who uses plastic for league is not a sandbagger either. Why you ask? It's simple, if a bowler owns 8 bowling balls why is he/she required to use only the one that will work the best? Simply put, he/she is not required. More importantly, in most cases he/she would probably make the wrong choice anyway. After all, how many times have any of us got done bowling and said "if I only I would have brought 'x' with me tonight...I would've lit it up." Were you bagging because you COULD have performed better?

Anyone performing to the best of their ability cannot by definition be called a sandbagger. Therein lies the problem with bowling, one that I've rehashed time and again.

As for the handicap problem...handicap is the BANE of bowling, competitive or otherwise. Personally, I tend to stay FAR away from handicap events. Not because of the bowler you describe, but because of the conditions...typically the THS. When a scratch player HAS to average 250+ in order to achieve a decent CASH (not tournament win...a CASH)...sorry not for me.

I have no problem losing to a better bowler. That is why I prefer scratch events. Regardless of average, if you beat me scratch you deserve to win. It's as simple as that.

Krakken · « **Reply #9 on:** September 06, 2008, 12:56:05 PM »

quote:
quote:
You say it doesn't matter, but I guess you would care if someone got handicap for the average they have in the much harder house and then cleaned up on a THS shot. Then you would be calling that same bowler a sandbagger because he beat you with his "harder house" average.

A sandbagger is one who DELIBERATELY performs at a level less than his/her ability. The situation described here does NOT fall under such a stipulation. Likewise, a bowler who uses plastic for league is not a sandbagger either. Why you ask? It's simple, if a bowler owns 8 bowling balls why is he/she required to use only the one that will work the best? Simply put, he/she is not required. More importantly, in most cases he/she would probably make the wrong choice anyway. After all, how many times have any of us got done bowling and said "if I only I would have brought 'x' with me tonight...I would've lit it up." Were you bagging because you COULD have performed better?

Anyone performing to the best of their ability cannot by definition be called a sandbagger. Therein lies the problem with bowling, one that I've rehashed time and again.

As for the handicap problem...handicap is the BANE of bowling, competitive or otherwise. Personally, I tend to stay FAR away from handicap events. Not because of the bowler you describe, but because of the conditions...typically the THS. When a scratch player HAS to average 250+ in order to achieve a decent CASH (not tournament win...a CASH)...sorry not for me.

I have no problem losing to a better bowler. That is why I prefer scratch events. Regardless of average, if you beat me scratch you deserve to win. It's as simple as that.

What about the guy that goes to the USBC Championships with a 179 average that was created on a non sanctioned PBA shot? He is then in the classified division unfairly.

Say what you want about the Classified division but it isn't going anywhere and they actually contribute the majority of the $ to the prize fund.
--------------------
Speed Kills
When in doubt, move out

rotomike · « **Reply #10 on:** September 06, 2008, 01:30:52 PM »

I wish our house would use Scorpion for the House shot.

I agree with Bob that there should be a rating like in golf for each center's condition.

The house can put down whatever they want for a lane condition.
--------------------
Mike Sinek
Roto Grip Amateur Staff
Kingdom member for life

EagleHunter · « **Reply #11 on:** September 06, 2008, 01:52:52 PM »

quote:
What about the guy that goes to the USBC Championships with a 179 average that was created on a non sanctioned PBA shot? He is then in the classified division unfairly.

Say what you want about the Classified division but it isn't going anywhere and they actually contribute the majority of the $ to the prize fund.

The below is taken directly from the Prize Fee distributed in Albuquerque:
TotalEntry Fee: 9,753 Regular Teams @ $225 = $2,194,425
Less Tournament Expense Fee: $975,300
Balance Available for Prizes: $1,219,125

TotalEntry Fee: 2,862 Classified Teams @ $225 = $643,950
Less Tournament Expense Fee: $286,200
Balance Available for Prizes: $357,750

The monies paid by the Classified bowlers are put into a different fund. It clearly does NOT fund the majority of the fund as you claim.

As to the caliber of the Classified bowler...even if a bowler bowls on a non-recognized PBAX shot (as you claim), that bowler more than likely is still not bowling on the Open condition. That said, such a bowler still needs to PERFORM in order to score regardless of what division he/she is in. If a bowler chooses to under perform in an attempt to take a "lion's share" of less money (v. Regular Division $$$), that is their problem. The money is to be made is really in the Regular Division.

swnl · « **Reply #12 on:** September 06, 2008, 04:14:03 PM »

Something about it not being a sanctioned as a sport shot does not sit well with me. I will repost after league and see what the centers managers has to say or has done.

mumzie · « **Reply #13 on:** September 06, 2008, 07:05:14 PM »

You might want to ask why they've decided to put down the shot but not sanction it as such.
When they sanction as sport, a few things need to happen.
1. You will pay $15 more for your USBC card.
2. They will have to send a tape of the condition to the local association every week. This assumes that
a. They have the machine and
b. Your local association can read it.

If the house wanted to put the condition out, but didn't want to meet the other conditions, that's certainly their choice - just as it's your choice to bowl there or not.

--------------------
------------------------
www.Shirts4Bowling.com
We Know What Bowlers Want

Home of the HAMBONE shirt!

Krakken · « **Reply #14 on:** September 06, 2008, 08:41:21 PM »

Eagle, I might have been mis informed, but it still doesn't make it right to the classified bowlers.

Just because they haven't bowled on the open condition doesn't mean that they don't have an advantage. Most PBA leagues will lay out the USBC shot later in the year.

Bottom line is a league bowling on sport or PBA patterns should be sacntioned as such and the averages adjusted accordingly.
--------------------
Speed Kills
When in doubt, move out

Author Topic: New House using PBA patterns for standard league (Read 1817 times)

swnl

New House using PBA patterns for standard league

nutsforbowling

Re: New House using PBA patterns for standard league

Nails

Re: New House using PBA patterns for standard league

swnl

Re: New House using PBA patterns for standard league

nutsforbowling

Re: New House using PBA patterns for standard league

bluerrpilot

Re: New House using PBA patterns for standard league

EagleHunter

Re: New House using PBA patterns for standard league

nutsforbowling

Re: New House using PBA patterns for standard league

EagleHunter

Re: New House using PBA patterns for standard league

Krakken

Re: New House using PBA patterns for standard league

rotomike

Re: New House using PBA patterns for standard league

EagleHunter

Re: New House using PBA patterns for standard league

swnl

Re: New House using PBA patterns for standard league

mumzie

Re: New House using PBA patterns for standard league

Krakken

Re: New House using PBA patterns for standard league