Impossible to accurately implement and completely subjective.  Too much gray area.

Quote from: tburky on April 25, 2017, 04:12:30 PM

Just my honest opinion. I see the USBC putting together a database of averages in all centers and rerating bowlers in their particular center based on the data. The reason I say this is a lot of big dollar handicap tournaments have people averaging 185-190 that bowl in centers that have piss poor topography and low volume of oil and go to a tournament that has an easy shot and shoot 660+ with a lot of handicap. Also you have the typical baggers too.

Yes, the numbers could technically be done, but the concept behind it is ludicrous.  Some people excel on wetter conditions or on drier conditions.  What happens when your average doesn't fit the trend of the house you bowl in and you get to go to another house that both fits your game AND you get extra pins to boot?  Some people could be opposite, you could bowl well at a house other people don't, go to a different house where you both get penalized AND don't match up.  It's completely subjective, just because the numbers could technically be crunched doesn't mean the idea itself is viable in the least. 

Quote from: Olderdude on April 25, 2017, 02:12:24 PM

This will be dependent on bowling centers to enforce?   

The article says the league secretary is the one who chooses the league designation. What happens after that is anyone's guess.

I believe the article does not mention enforcement at all.

So far 90%  of this thread discusses the same old differences between plain league and sport league. It's almost impossible to monitor AND CORRECT all the potential injustices that can happen accidentally and will happen on purpose. The USBC has already stated that sandbagging cannot be proven without knowing the intention of the bowler - this requires 30th century mind reading technology.  So sandbagging will continue to happen, both intentionally and accidentally, no matter where the bowler's average is established and no matter how the league is labeled. 175 average bowlers will continue to throws 700s in tournaments and continue to beat the 230 average bowlers.

Make no mistake:
1. "Challenge" league is just a label.
2. Without some true, reliable method to regulate and enforce all the implications of a challenge or sport league, all "if"s, "and"s or "but"s are strictly moot.

So if someone wants to bowl the USBC Open, they have to have a Sport average or be rated as 220? That would be the end of the USBC Open.

Quote from: Olderdude on April 26, 2017, 10:34:46 AM

I mentioned in a different thread that kind of morphed into this subject a little.

I like what Gene mentioned about tiers: Sport, Challenge, Recreational.  I have mentioned that the only average you can use for a USBC tournament is Sport or Challenge and the Recreational is just for that.  If a league wants to bowl on that pattern knock yourself out, have fun.  But if you want to bowl any USBC sanctioned tournament, you'll have to step up.  This wont help sandbagging, but as everyone here has mentioned cheaters will cheat.  At least this way everyone has a more restricted and level playing field.

Still the same effect, it would be the end of the USBC Open.

Quote from: Olderdude on April 26, 2017, 11:31:54 AM

Quote from: milorafferty on April 26, 2017, 11:13:09 AM

So if someone wants to bowl the USBC Open, they have to have a Sport average or be rated as 220? That would be the end of the USBC Open.

Quote from: Olderdude on April 26, 2017, 10:34:46 AM

I mentioned in a different thread that kind of morphed into this subject a little.

I like what Gene mentioned about tiers: Sport, Challenge, Recreational.  I have mentioned that the only average you can use for a USBC tournament is Sport or Challenge and the Recreational is just for that.  If a league wants to bowl on that pattern knock yourself out, have fun.  But if you want to bowl any USBC sanctioned tournament, you'll have to step up.  This wont help sandbagging, but as everyone here has mentioned cheaters will cheat.  At least this way everyone has a more restricted and level playing field.

Not necessarily sport could be challenge.

Because your average league bowler does not want to bowl on Challenge, Sport or any other condition other than their THS. Why is that so hard for all you folks to understand?
They are in the league for fun and do not consider a harder shot than their THS fun.

Yes, the Open is scratch, but that isn't how they are going to see it. Your under 210 bowlers will refuse(or do not have access to a challenge/sport league) to spend their money when they know they have zero chance. And what happens to the Classified group? It will cease to exist immediately.

When I was at USBC, I suggested going one of two directions, either mandating that all certified leagues be bowled on Sport-compliant patterns, or tiering leagues. For example, an oil ratio between 1:1 and 3:1 would be Sport and offer the highest awards package (when USBC still handled awards). Ratios between 4:1 and 7:1 equals Challenge and would have fewer awards and recognition, and anything above 7:1 equals Recreational, which would mean no awards unless they wanted to print them off themselves. I also thought maybe it would be best to have all youth leagues conducted on Sport from Day 1. That way, all kids would ever know are tough patterns, which might make them more willing to accept them as they get older. Sadly, none of those ideas were taken very seriously.

At this point. my suggestion would be to let USBC create a roster full of patterns or to use PBA, WTBA, and Kegel patterns. Mandate that all certified leagues use (one or a combination) those patterns, make them report which ones are being used, and make them take tapes every so often. They wouldn't have to do it every week like they wanted with Sport, but just once in a while. Also, maybe try to mandate that the local association conduct a certain number of random checks throughout each season just to try to limit cheating.

From the USBC side, if a certain bowler or center appears to be showing anomalies when it comes to scoring (either significantly above or below the national average for the pattern in question), they can conduct an inquiry and/or flag all of the bowlers who established averages in that center so that, until it's determined that everything is on the up and up, they can't take advantage of the situation.

Now, obviously, this idea, just like all others, has clear flaws. First of all, the way those patterns play in different houses with different machines, conditioner, topography, etc. is going to vary greatly, but at least then we would, theoretically, know what everyone is bowling on. Hell, USBC and tournament directors could even tier the patterns. If your league bowls on the toughest ones, you get re-rated higher just like they want to do now. If your league uses the friendlier patterns, we'll know why your average may be inflated.

While I like leagues and centers having autonomy over what they want to put out, it's just too much of a free for fall, and that's part of the problem. While there are and always will be scumbags who bag on purpose to screw others over, I think there are lots of honest bowlers who come off as baggers just because their leagues decide they want more of a challenge than the THS has to offer. In the end, there is no way to make things 100% fair because their is no way to monitor centers closely enough to make sure they're in compliance. Still, at least we're having these discussions, and USBC is willing to try different things to make this better than it is right now. That's a start.