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Author Topic: Nonpaying teammate Rules Question  (Read 9071 times)

ccrider

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Nonpaying teammate Rules Question
« on: May 03, 2012, 08:32:20 PM »
Three of my teammates got behind more than two weeks on there fees. The league treasure told them that the could bowl and told them that they had until April 30 to catch everything up. They caught up and we won this quarter and made the roll offs by 2 points.

A team filed a protest, saying we should forfeit all points earned by our team while the players were more than two weeks down.  The league president has sided with them, took our points and says he is calling a meeting for a vote on whether our team will be given credit for the points won by the two guys on the team who were current.

I understand that the local rule is that if you are more than two weeks behind, you are not allowed to bowl and you forfeit your point. However, the treasure has always been given leeway on letting people pay and get caught up.

There is no written rule about the team losing the points of the bowlers that are current so they are trying to make one up to keep us out of the rolloff. What would you do, short of kickin the treasure to sleep?  >:(

Is there a USBC Rule that will help us out on this?

 

JOE FALCO

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Re: Nonpaying teammate Rules Question
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2012, 10:24:19 PM »
My understanding is if there is a LEAGUE RULE it can not be over ridden by a USBC rule. When there is NO LEAGUE RULE then the USBC rules apply.

The only saver in the case discussed is that a league officer allowed the condition to happen .. this maybe a point to argue!
RIP Thongprincess/Sawbones!

dizzyfugu

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Re: Nonpaying teammate Rules Question
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2012, 06:45:51 AM »
Ditto. IMHO, if this case is covered offcially by league statutes, these have priority, otherwise USBC or any governing body's regulation fill the gap.

Additionally - from personal experience - if you have such a case or "special regulation" with the league secretary, treasurer or official, make sure that you have some hard copy document (ideally), or at least neutral witnesses who can confirm the story. Sounds very picky, but spoken words and esp. vague memory mean nothing when you are up against another one's word or opinion.
DizzyFugu ~ Reporting from Germany

ccrider

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Re: Nonpaying teammate Rules Question
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2012, 07:50:20 AM »
The treasure admits that he said it. No big deal until someone figured out a way to get us out.

JohnP

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Re: Nonpaying teammate Rules Question
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2012, 10:13:08 AM »
Sadly, IMO, the written league rule must be enforced.  I would try to get the treasurer replaced next season.  --  JohnP

Stan

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Re: Nonpaying teammate Rules Question
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2012, 10:48:30 AM »
I think if the league treasurer allowed other teams to bowl under the same circumstance, then you may have a good fight.  At worse case, the secretary would have to go back and correct ALL the scores from the other teams that bowled under the same circumstance.

This practice is not uncommon.  Many treasurers trust certain bowlers more than others.  I am not saying this is right, just that I have seen this in many leagues.

My question would be, is this a individual point league ?  If it is not, then maybe by taking these 3 bowlers absent scores would still give you the victory.  That is if your league rule states that 2 bowlers make up a legal lineup (assuming this is a 5 man tam).

Just for better clarification.  A league rule may not override an USBC rule.  If a league rule is in conflict with a USBC rule, then the USBC rule wins.  i.e. you can not throw an 18lb ball or go over the foul line while excuting a shot.  (just an example).

completebowler

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Re: Nonpaying teammate Rules Question
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2012, 11:14:39 AM »
I have experienced this exact situation before and if the league has not enforced it strictly throughout the season to every bowler in arrears then it is null and void. They cannot go back and retroactively strip teams of points/wins.

When this rule is written it is as a deterrent for the most part. Some guys always slip behind and if so the league has to enforce it that week. If not, then they cannot go back after someone they don't like or someone who is winning violates the rule and then choose to enforce it.

Fight this action to the very end. You will win.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 11:17:49 AM by completebowler »

completebowler

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Re: Nonpaying teammate Rules Question
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2012, 11:32:04 AM »
Can a league adopt a rule to curtail late or nonpayment of league fees?
According to Rule 110a, a league could adopt a rule stating games will be forfeited if participants in a team’s lineup are not current in their fees. With such a rule, if the members present do not submit their own fees, the games are subject to forfeiture.
However, games cannot be forfeited if fees are not paid when a member is absent or the team has a vacancy. If the absent member does not pay in full upon return, then all games the member bowls while in arrears would be subject to forfeiture if a timely protest is filed. The league board should not hesitate to enforce the rule when there is a violation and
should be consistent in the application of its rules.

It is the last part of this rule that your situation would fall under. First, he didn't enforce the rule consistiently. Second, he knew your guys were in violation and admits to making an agreement with you about the arrearages that went against the league rule.

Again, you cannot allow something to knowingly go on and then decide to enforce it at a later date as punitive acion. The reason the rule is null the first time a bowlers scores are allowed to be used when he is in arrearages is because if the rule was enforced that day the bowler would then know he has to pay up or else forfeit more games/points.

It has to be enforced strictly or not at all. USBC will back you up on this. Especially if all monies were caught up eventually.

Whos Left

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Re: Nonpaying teammate Rules Question
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2012, 07:45:20 PM »
If there are written league rules they must be followed.  If not, the agreement
made with the treasurer should be honored.  Problems arise when rules are not
followed.  As another arguement, if another team member has paid ahead, his
money could be shifted to the non paying bowler at the time.

batbowler

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Re: Nonpaying teammate Rules Question
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2012, 08:26:32 PM »
If they were in arrears and were still allowed to bowl and the points awarded, then you can't go back at the end of the league and take them away! The protest has to be filed the night they are bowled and not when everybody realize they made the playoffs!!! Sounds like some poor sports!!! The team to protest should be the team they bowled that night when they were in arrears!!!
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no300tj

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Re: Nonpaying teammate Rules Question
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2012, 09:30:38 PM »
The league rule becomes invisible the instant a league officer makes an exception. I am good with proven individuals being given some lee way. Stuff happens. Money, comes and goes. As long as it's paid in full at league end, all is good. I could never, in good conscience, protest anything like this. Funny, how people are?

ccrider

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Re: Nonpaying teammate Rules Question
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2012, 09:35:33 AM »
First, thanks for your input and directions.  We have requested a copy of the rules and the protest. Everybody paid up on April 30 as agreed with the treasure. We had to win that night to get into the roll off and we did. Thought all was good and four or five days later we get a call saying someone filed a protest for our points won two weeks earlier. The rules say that In the last two weeks the protest must be made within 72 hours. I do not think that this protest is timely. 
Also I believe that we will find that they decided to enforce this rule only the last two weeks of the league. I will let you know as we progress.

JOE FALCO

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Re: Nonpaying teammate Rules Question
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2012, 03:25:53 PM »
Stan .. clarification PLEASE .. I've always understood that league rules prevail .. situations where there is NOT a league rule THEN we look into USBC for direction .. you state in #5 the opposite of this .. are you sure???
RIP Thongprincess/Sawbones!

MI 2 AZ

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Re: Nonpaying teammate Rules Question
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2012, 06:39:17 PM »
Joe, a league can't put in a rule like you can use either hand to shoot at spares, or that league members can ignore the foul line and deliver the ball from ten feet away from the pin deck.  Those violate USBC rules.
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Nicanor

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Re: Nonpaying teammate Rules Question
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2012, 09:37:14 AM »
I would contact the National USBC office by email before the meeting.  If the games were bowled and at that time no one protested, then they had up to two weeks to write a protest or within 72 hours the last two weeks of the season and submit it to USBC.  You can't wait until the end of the season to enforce a rule to cut someone out of a roll off.  If the Secretary/Treasurer gave permission to bowl, then they can't go back and say later that its a forfeit because rather then forfeit, they would have borrowed the money or bowled blind to the following week. At least then they would of had an option.

Good luck,
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 09:40:43 AM by Nicanor »
Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)