BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Gizmo823 on September 23, 2013, 12:24:09 PM
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Lol after seeing the debacle of the two dry lane threads, I'm not sure I want to go here, but I wanted to get some thoughts or comments. We continue to have problems with pin spots at a center I bowl at. Unlike the dry shot issue, which is the same on every pair, that affects everyone equally, the pin spots are all different from lane to lane. There are pairs that have chronic problems, and the pins that are most commonly off spot are the 3, 4, and 6. These are all pretty important pins. You would think that over the course of the year everybody would take their turn on the rough pairs and that it would be rough for both teams on that pair, and yeah it does work out like that, but keep reading. However, this league has several league-wide competitions going on. We have an eliminator, takes the top half of the scores from game 1, and everyone that makes the cut gets 2 bucks, then you take the top half again to the third game, where everyone gets a minimum 4 bucks, but your score the last game determines your payout, to a max of 14 bucks a night. The league fee is 20, so you can almost pay for your night just by winning the eliminator. We also have a 2nd game pot. Take everyone's scores the 2nd game, and low man is out (ties for low man result in both/all players being eliminated). Continue to do that every week until you have a winner. 1st is 140, 2nd is 70. We ALSO have random match play, you get randomly matched up with someone else in the league every game, every week, and if you beat the person you're against, you get 30 bonus pins. Every week you are ranked on total score with bonus pins, and you get paid out at the end of the year according to your rank, and the payout is in the hundreds. This is why I feel it's important for everything across the league to at least be consistent, whether it's fair, unfair, good, crappy, or otherwise.
Due to these reasons, I don't feel like complaining about a 3 pin that's so far deep and left that it's almost touching the 5 pin makes me a crybaby. We had one rack last week that I could see 5 different pins off spot on just from the approach. Now the people I was bowling with and against were telling me to just bowl and not worry about it. That is until they started leaving all kinds of junk that was costing them money. Last year when I complained about it, I didn't make much headway, I pretty well got shut down, so I've kept my mouth shut this year. But at what point do you just have to take a stand? Or should you just choose to hit the bricks? It's also interesting because I'm the city lane certification director, and our pin spots were so bad last week that the lights shouldn't have even been on. They're cleaning and rebuilding the pin decks throughout the house, so they didn't want to spend a ton of time adjusting pin spots when they're just going to come through and redo everything, BUT pin spots are still off on the ones that have already been repaired, apparently no one made sure the pin spots were on after the repairs like they were supposed to and like I was told they would be.
Again, instead of being my typical self from the past and blowing up and getting all pissy, I haven't taken any action yet, and all I'm doing is presenting everyone with an explanation of the situation to get some input. At what point do you "just bowl," and when do you stand up and say it's not right and needs to be fixed? People fudge on rules all the time because they don't want to be the snitch or people don't want them to be a stickler, but as soon as someone has those problems directly affect them, it's different. Why have rules or standards if they're not followed? People will use easy slide on their shoes and argue with people who have a problem with it, but as soon as they're sliding fine one night and have to slide through someone ELSE using easy slide, then it's an issue.
Objectively speaking, it seems to all average out at the end of the year, but I still don't think it's right. I don't like my scores and my payout affected or influenced by mechanical problems outside my control. It's also still early in the year, but I thought I'd get some opinions first before I be my normal self, thanks.
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Like you, I am the lane inspector in our area. I have seen some issues with this and I have held certification papers until they have been fixed...Why dont you do the same? If you check the lanes and they do not pass, don't let the paperwork be signed and sent off until it gets fixed.
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I'm contemplating it honestly . . there are fairly new owners here and guys that I've known for a while, guys that have been there and done that extremely well in the bowling world. They're high ideal and principle guys that are trying to do things "right" and instead of patching things or adjusting things, they're FIXING things, so I gave them the benefit of the doubt here. But now seeing the already rebuilt racks that still don't have the pins on spot like they were supposed to be, I'm getting a bit irritated. They've got problems across the board, and yeah it's going to take some time, but when the fixes aren't being done right . . I'm gonna take another close look tonight, and maybe at least check in with the owners about the progress, but I hope I'm not getting strongarmed here.
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Is the shop in which you work located in this bowling center?
And I know that shouldn't matter, but in the real world there are politics involved.
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Here's another question.
IIRC (and it's been a long time ago, so I'm more than likely wrong), the certification papers are for the entire season, correct?
If so, since the season has already started, would they already be certified for the season? If so,
- could the certification be suspended or revoked until the problem is fixed mid-season?
- You are the certification director. Could you not schedule a time to inspect the lanes? If so, and you don't find them up to par, see question #1.
Now, while while I can see the other team getting pissy, both as a bowler and certification director, you, the league officers, and you again would have to enforce Rule 7a. There isn't a limit on how many times you can re-rack, but if you are doing that and it is consistent, definitely pull the trigger for a lane inspection. But I don't know how far up the chain you'd have to go for certification revocation or suspension until it's fixed. You may want to check up on that.
BL.
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The lane aren't certified like in the old days anymore. Once it's certified you don't have to do a certification unless you make renovations on the lanes. What type pinsetters do they have? Rebuilt racks? Brunswick model A or A-2 pinsetters have decks, which has a stationary and moving deck. The moving deck shifts to set pins and if the rollers are bad or spotting fingers are bad then you can get off spot pins. They don't have a so-called pin spot that needs adjusted. AMF has a pin cup, but I don't do a lot of work on AMF. Now on a Brunswick pinsetter the scissor can cause problems if they hit the pins when the deck lowers to respot a full set of pins. I'm on the board of directors for our association and I also help manage and do mechanic work at the center. It would be just about impossible for the 3 pin to be by the 5 pin on a Brunswick model A or A-2 pinsetter. Just my $.02, Bruce
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I would think after cleaning and rebuilding the decks you would, as the local lane inspector, be justified in inspecting those things that would have been affected by the work. In this case, you could check the spots on each lane to ensure compliance.
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Gizmo,
Make your adjustments and ball down or up to ball that will carry. Once you strike simply throw the same shot again and again. The pins do have a variation of 7/16ths of where they can be placed. Did you verify with the center that the pins are actually misracked? Why is it that when people dont carry they blame the rack?
PS...Im only joking....but this is the BS I put up with the dry lanes..lol
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Lmao, yeah, I get it . .
Gizmo,
Make your adjustments and ball down or up to ball that will carry. Once you strike simply throw the same shot again and again. The pins do have a variation of 7/16ths of where they can be placed. Did you verify with the center that the pins are actually misracked? Why is it that when people dont carry they blame the rack?
PS...Im only joking....but this is the BS I put up with the dry lanes..lol
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That's the nail on the head right there, yes. And again you're right, it shouldn't matter, but it kind of does.
The pinsetters are GS-x's, so they have individual "cups" that can all be adjusted pretty easily. The tolerance is actually 1/4", and believe it or not, even such a "small" distance off (depending on the direction) can make a difference. If the 3 pin is 1/4 back or 1/4 left, it's not that big of a deal, BUT if it's 1/4 in the direction of the 5 pin, it cumulatively equals 1/2 inch, so 1/2 inch off towards the 5 pin equals 1 full inch, which believe it or not is massive.
You might not believe it, but you can pretty easily see even 1/4 left or right from the approach, because of the way your eyes look at things. Instead of judging the pin left or right by itself, which would be impossible to see, when you have a full rack, you judge the pin's placement vs the other pins that are up there. Take the 3 pin for example, if it's 1/4 left, it's 1/4 closer to the headpin, but 1/4 further away from the 6 pin when viewing them from straight ahead, so the difference is seen, or the deviation from being centered, not the distance. If the 3 pin is sitting there by itself, you'd have to move it an inch or two before you'd notice. So when people say, "you can't see 1/4" from the approach," they're right and wrong at the same time. With a full rack, you can, without a full rack, you can't.
I bowl tonight, so I'm going to pay as much attention as I can and try to find out which decks have already been rebuilt and see what's going on with those lanes. But like I said, I hope my comprimising position isn't being taken advantage of, not to mention my age.
Is the shop in which you work located in this bowling center?
And I know that shouldn't matter, but in the real world there are politics involved.
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Gizmo, I figured they had to be the GS-X machines! They seem to have more problems than the older Brunswick pinsetters. Brunswick tried to be more like AMF with the cups and I've noticed at the Pinnacle in Clarksville that they have more off spot pins. The Pinnacle has been working harder the last few years to get everything back in shape.
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You're in a no win situation. If you like working there and bowling there it's prolly best to let it go. If you try to pull rank things will probably get a little uncomfortable. In reading the USBC rules it looks like you could do a re-inspection if they have replaced pin decks, but not if they have just repaired them. The mechanic at the bowl may tell you to GFY if you come in expecting to examine racks as a USBC representative and they have already been certified for the year.
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Thanks for the comments, you're right. I do however want to set myself up for a better position next year. I definitely don't want to make any threats or try to "throw my weight around," but so far they haven't held up their end of the bargain, and at some point something has to be done. Guess I'll just have to be as careful as possible with it for now.
You're in a no win situation. If you like working there and bowling there it's prolly best to let it go. If you try to pull rank things will probably get a little uncomfortable. In reading the USBC rules it looks like you could do a re-inspection if they have replaced pin decks, but not if they have just repaired them. The mechanic at the bowl may tell you to GFY if you come in expecting to examine racks as a USBC representative and they have already been certified for the year.
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If they are still in the process of doing repair work I would be inclined to leave it be for a while or at least until the time gets too excessive.
I think once all repair work is done and then if you are still seeing problems, its probably time to sit down, have a beer, and see what you can get done nicely. If they aren't as nice as you are about it, it may be time for you to put your foot down and see what can be done.
I don't think anyone wants to to stir up crap, especially if its a house you frequent often, but if its a continual problem, I think eventually something needs to be done, not just for you, but also for your fellow players.
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Well, here's the deal. I was told in July that the pin spots would be fixed as the decks get rebuilt, and was led to believe that would be a fairly quick process. Of course I'd be ok with them not wasting all the time adjusting spots if the racks were going to be rebuilt within the next month anyway. However, there have been exactly 5 decks rebuilt since July, and those racks now sport some of the worst spots in the house.
There's an update here too. The league president bowled on a pair last night where the 3 pin was literally an inch right. This pair is one that has already had the decks rebuilt. He spoke with me, said something to one of the center owners, and I sent an email to our association manager. Apparently several other people have complained to the owners about the spots, so at least the ball got started rolling by someone else.
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He spoke with me, said something to one of the center owners, and I sent an email to our association manager. Apparently several other people have complained to the owners about the spots, so at least the ball got started rolling by someone else.
Amazing how this was the advice that I (and many others) would have given and it worked to solve the problem. Like in 12XSECH's thread, tape the lanes and things will change if they're wrong.
He is unable to differentiate lanes that are not in compliance with the sport with advice on playing a legal light-volume pattern.
If your pin spots are as specified (I'm sure they are), then that is exactly the same as an illegal pattern. The conditions aren't according to the book. As bowlers we're entitled to correct specifications (pin spots, lane pattern, etc) but NOT a preference of lane condition (or amount applied).
BUT.........you and the president pulled the trigger and made something happen. That was the real advice to 12.
Let us know how it turns out. I deal with slightly off spot pins on my Thursday league, but if they're 1" off (like the 3 pin you saw).......I mean c'mon........ >:(
The pins are off spot........I suppose I don't quite understand the FEAR and reluctance of offending someone by asking for what you are entitled to (because it's not offensive). I don't understand how that is political when it (the pin issue) is objectively self-evident.
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Thanks for the comments. Yeah, it seems like a really easy situation from the outside. It's amazing though how people take things as excuses or complaints. If you say approaches are sticky or pins are off spot, it sounds like excuses for poor bowling. It happens a lot on here as well, someone gets on to complain about something like this, and the response more often than not is, "well maybe you should just adjust or practice more." Owners get bombarded with all kinds of complaints, some ridiculous, and some that are actually founded. Perspective makes all the difference in the world. It's funny though how in years past, when things have been said to the mechanic about the pin spots, how short and pissy he's been with people, but when he has a bad pin spot cost him money or cause him problems one night, it's fixed the next day.
You're obviously right, there are specifications to stick to, and if something isn't right, it needs to be fixed. But being that I'm a bowler and it's affecting me along with others, rather than being simply an unbiased official, no matter how I say it, it can come off as being nitpicky or prompted by being upset at bad scores and blaming it on the pins rather than an objective observation. I do have to maintain a good relationship with the owners, because again, I'm a bowler, and I work in the pro shop in that center. We work together quite frequently with people as far as coaching and drilling, so although something needs to be done or fixed, it's a delicate situation whether it should be or not. Yes, I've been hesitant to say anything, but I appreciate the support and the advice as far as taking action. I personally hate sensitivity and politics. The pin spots are off and they need to be fixed, period. But this also means I can be too abrasive or direct sometimes, though sometimes there's a place or a need for it. Thanks again, I appreciate the comments. Things started moving last night, and I'm going to do my best to stay on top of it without ruffling feathers, but at the end of the day, the problems need to be fixed.
He spoke with me, said something to one of the center owners, and I sent an email to our association manager. Apparently several other people have complained to the owners about the spots, so at least the ball got started rolling by someone else.
Amazing how this was the advice that I (and many others) would have given and it worked to solve the problem. Like in 12XSECH's thread, tape the lanes and things will change if they're wrong.
He is unable to differentiate lanes that are not in compliance with the sport with advice on playing a legal light-volume pattern.
If your pin spots are as specified (I'm sure they are), then that is exactly the same as an illegal pattern. The conditions aren't according to the book. As bowlers we're entitled to correct specifications (pin spots, lane pattern, etc) but NOT a preference of lane condition (or amount applied).
BUT.........you and the president pulled the trigger and made something happen. That was the real advice to 12.
Let us know how it turns out. I deal with slightly off spot pins on my Thursday league, but if they're 1" off (like the 3 pin you saw).......I mean c'mon........ >:(
The pins are off spot........I suppose I don't quite understand the FEAR and reluctance of offending someone by asking for what you are entitled to (because it's not offensive). I don't understand how that is political when it (the pin issue) is objectively self-evident.
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I for one always look at our center for problems like this. I help the owner with the day to day operations and mechanical problems. I try to fix the problem as fast as possible, cause I know it affects the outcome of the game. If you look at how each pin has to hit the other pin for a strike to occur, without luck being involved. When a pin is off spot it do create problems with carry and then when it's not your lucky night it get worse. When you stick on the approach without expecting it, it does have an influence on your release and executing your shot. I have a guy I bowl with that complains every shot and it's never his fault, but that doesn't mean every bowler is that way! Once again sorry about your problems and I hope they get fixed soon. Just my $.02, Bruce
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I suppose I'd pose a rhetorical:
Are pins that are on spot, NOT included in my lineage? It cannot be an incredibly difficult fix for the owners.....
It (pins on spot) really does have a major impact on scores.
Again, I think you can be firm and fair w/o being abrasive. If someone takes a legitimate concern that is backed up by facts (which we have here), if that person is offended / sensitive, isn't that more of a problem they have with themselves?
I don't think I could let something as MAJOR as this "just go" without standing on principle alone. On something as far as lane conditions and those variables........ok, I'll adjust and still score, but pin spotting is a (this is for the non-forum members) BIG F'ING DEAL! Even moreso if there is some cash involved.
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Thanks for the support and reinforcement, it helps a lot. I feel the same way. The lane condition is different from something mechanical.
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Kudos for making something happen! :)