Post by: Jay on June 02, 2008, 07:00:35 PM
Anyways, I posted a whole explanation of what's been going on on another message board so I won't get into that here. What I want to know is what you guys believe the proper fit should feel like. Here's some questions I'd like answered:
1) How much and how exactly should you grip the ball during the swing?
2) If you believe in the span test, where should the edge of your hole/grip meet your fingers when you lay them over the holes?
3) How much bevel is necessary?
4) Do most people have to use tape of any kind for grip or release purposes?
5) Mow much of your hand should be in contact with the ball when you put your fingers in?
6) If someone's span is correct, is forward or reverse pitch more popular in the thumb?
I'm trying to get as much information as I can because I'm working with my span and pitches so I don't have to "squeeze". I would guess I've been squeezing since I've started bowling 8 years ago but only because I had to in order to not dropp the ball. Now, I'm ready to stop because I feel I'm at a point where I can't improve my physical game or be very versatile because of the squeezing.
If you guys have any specific questions that would help you in determining what might be my problem, feel free to ask. As you might guess, I'm pretty irritated with the problem since it's been quite a hassle trying to figure it out.
Post by: the pooh on June 03, 2008, 09:29:21 AM
1)You should not have to grip the ball more than would hurt a small bird,like a canary.The ball should fit comfortably and snugly enough that you really don't have to think about WHEN to grip it!
2)The gripping edge of the finger holes should fall to a point almost exactly midway between the creases of your fingers.This,in my experience with thousands of bowlers,will not vary much from this.IF it varies at all,it should fall maybe 1/16 to 1/8 inch to the short side.This is with the thumb inserted all the way and the fingers strtched MILDLY over the holes.
3)Assuming your using inserts,none in the fingers.The bevel on the thumb is individual preference.That being said,you should use as little bevel as needed so as to not put pressure on a nerve.This edge allows you to grip the ball without sqeezing.
4)ALL bowlers should tape the thumb hole.This is the most critical part of the release.Thumbs swell and shrink much more than most people realize.If I fit you correctly today,your thumb WILL be a different size tommorrow.The only way to have a good release all of the time,is to oversize the hole slightly and add tape.This way,you can add or subtract tape to have a perfect fit all of the time.I always ask bowlers:"Do you want your ball to fit perfectly some of the time or all of the time?"Another critical issue with the thumb,is the oval.If your thumb is oval,you do not want a round hole!!
5)Drilled to the above standards,there will not be a strong contact of your hand to the ball.Oh,there will be contact,but nothing you should think about.One thing for sure,the hand does NOT lay flat on the ball as many people mistakenly think it should!Also the ball should sit on the ball of the index finger,not in the palm.
6) This depends on your flexibility and thumb length,therfore cnnot be answered on the internet!Most likely,if everything above has been done correctly,you will not have large ammounts of reverse.
7)Pitches of the fingers also depend on YOUR hand!
Hope this helps and pm me if you have any more questions.
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the pooh
Post by: dicnic on June 03, 2008, 09:36:29 AM
Folks use tape to adjust the thumb hole as the thumb swells or shrinks due to weather, bowling or whatever. Some bowlers never have to do that. Personally, I use Ron C's Magic Carpet in all of my thumb holes so I never have a thumb fit problem.
Bevel depends upon how much "hurt" a non-beveled hole imparts. Some bowlers like the feel of a sharp edge, especially in the fingers. Some prefer the soft grips.
Pitch usually depends upon your hand, your release and experimentation.
Good Luck.
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Never take a sleeping pill and a laxative on the same night.
Post by: Dan Belcher on June 03, 2008, 09:54:26 AM
quote:Actually, shouldn't you bevel the finger holes slightly even then, to help prevent possible cracking?
3)Assuming your using inserts,none in the fingers.
Post by: the pooh on June 03, 2008, 10:01:27 AM
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the pooh
Post by: JohnP on June 03, 2008, 10:29:26 AM
Post by: Jay on June 03, 2008, 06:13:32 PM
1) When I swing the ball, I have to grip it one way or another. Since I've been doing it for so long I don't even think about it because it's human nature. If I did not have to grip, would my body know it or would I have to focus on not gripping until I get used to it?
2) My driller took a used ball and punched it up with a shorter span, and at this point there's 1/8 forward. When doing the span test, the edge of the finger holes meet my fingers at about 1/4 past the first crease so you all would agree it's still too long? When I hold the ball there's no room for a pencilbetween my palm and the ball.
3) My normal span was 4 3/8. But with the test ball, it's the same on the MF but the RF is 4 1/8 because it's dropped. Based on what I'm told by various people, I should probably be around 4 1/16 MF and 3 13/16 RF.
4) With that test ball being that span and pitch, I have to grip at least with the pad or base of my thumb but I don't need to bend the knuckle. I wish I sould eliminate that because then I don't think less bevel would bother my thumb so much.
5) For reference purposes, my finger pitches are MF 1/8 forward and 3/8 lateral, RF 1/8 reverse and 3/8 lateral. Never had issues with them.
6) I currently use white grip tape in my thumb holes for better grip, but usually when I appear to be swelling(almost always before I bowl) I just use easy slide because as I bowl the hole seems to loosesn up anyways. I've tried black tape in the back of the thumb hole but didn't like it because the top of it(round side) was irritating the back of my thumb between the knuckle and the joint. Had I bowled enough, it would have tore some skin. I've had that happen before with white tape and even no tape back there(needed more sanding in that area). So it seems my thumb doesn't like anything in the back of the hole.
If it's not too much trouble, could some of you with proper fitting balls that you don't have to squeeze post a couple pics for me? I want to see a pic of your hand in the ball, a pic of you doing the span test, and a pic of just the ball showing the holes(to see how they're beveled). These pics would show me what a proper fitting ball is supposed to look like.
Again thanks for the replies. I value them all so keep them coming especially with ways to remedy my problem.
Edited on 6/3/2008 6:46 PM
Post by: Strike300 on June 03, 2008, 11:20:01 PM
Post by: Atochabsh on June 04, 2008, 01:04:59 AM
quote:
I don't even think about it because it's human nature.
Its only "human nature" because you probably were not shown how to roll a bowling ball early enough in your career.
quote:
With that test ball being that span and pitch, I have to grip at least with the pad or base of my thumb but I don't need to bend the knuckle.
That's fine in my book as long as its equal pressure with your fingers.
Try being female and having to deal with monthly swelling issues that weather and diet have nothing to deal with. For some people dealing with ongoing swelling or shrinkage is personal and you have to deal with it from individual to individual.
Erin
Post by: Jay on June 04, 2008, 01:27:13 AM
I actually wasn't taught to throw a bowling ball except by my dad. And I can't remember as far back as when I started bowling so I can remember if I truly had to squeeze. But as long as i've thrown fingertip I know I've squeezed.
If my span is right, gripping with the pad or base of my thumb shouldn't bug me, I assume. It felt too weird and possibly too much pressure on my thumb. Plus, if you grip with the base, less bevel tends to irritate that area, which was happening with me. Me and my driller are going to try an even shorter span because I think that one was still too long.
I have enough swelling problems without being female in my opinion. They say your thumb is always a different size today than it was yesterday. Me, I normally just can't get my thumb in the hole very easily/at all when I start bowling. So I use easy slide so I can get in the hole okay and after a while it seems to loosen up to what seems should be actual size. That's weird to me but whatever. Does that mean I shrink as I bowl?
Post by: renoatpikeville on June 04, 2008, 02:46:18 AM
quote:quote:Actually, shouldn't you bevel the finger holes slightly even then, to help prevent possible cracking?
3)Assuming your using inserts,none in the fingers.
Agree. Not beveling finger holes before inserts may void any manufacturers warranties.
Post by: JohnP on June 04, 2008, 11:03:28 AM
quote:
2) My driller took a used ball and punched it up with a shorter span, and at this point there's 1/8 forward. When doing the span test, the edge of the finger holes meet my fingers at about 1/4 past the first crease so you all would agree it's still too long? When I hold the ball there's no room for a pencil between my palm and the ball.
With a span this stretched you're going to damage your finger joints. Perhaps not today, but over time they will start hurting. Also, I tried a stretched span one time (but not as stretched as you're describing), years ago, and I couldn't get nearly as many revs on the ball as with a relaxed span. -- JohnP
Post by: Jay on June 04, 2008, 04:09:05 PM
That said, me and my driller are going to try and even shorter span and try to really get the finger holes to meet midway between the creases. I think the span will end up coming out to 3 7/8 MF and 3 5/16 RF or something close to that. Pretty short hand huh?
Post by: Buzzhead on June 04, 2008, 09:55:27 PM
Something to check out too.
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Ten pin?????? Where?? I throw a BUZZSAW there is NUTTIN left on the deck...
Proud MEMBER of the FOS!!
Member of the FOS, if there happens to be a 9 pin standing just toss a saw and cut it down~~!
Post by: JohnP on June 04, 2008, 10:28:12 PM
Post by: Jay on June 04, 2008, 10:56:31 PM
quote:
Maybe I misunderstood your description of your span. I thought you said the leading edge of the finger holes fell 1/4" past the first finger joint, which would be almost to the nail. That's too long. Also, the span combination you mentioned - MF 3 7/8 and RF 3 5/16 - are VERY unusual unless you're using a Sarge Easter grip. Most hands measure a little longer on the ring finger than the middle finger, and I don't remember ever measuring a hand that was 9/16 shorter on the ring finger. -- JohnP
When I said 1/4 past the first finger joint, I actually meant it as in between the first and second joints, not closer to the nail. But now that I think about it, it was more like 3/16. I could be wrong about those measurements on the span of that ball as well, but that's how I remember it. I might not be placing my hand correctly in and on the bill taylor but if my hand is relaxed it will definitely be a span of less than 4 inches.
I have a dropped ring finger and it's about 1/2 inch shorter than my middle. Having checked it out again today, I think my span should really be close to 3 15/16 MF and 3 7/16 RF. I'm quite sure I'm within 1/8 of being right on the ring finger but the middle finger is right on the span we drilled today(just not sure what that span is).
The weird thing is even though the ring finger span isn't to midway between the joints yet, there's still plenty of room between my hand and the ball when I hold it at my side. A pencil can easily slide in there.
Edited on 6/4/2008 10:58 PM
Post by: Jay on June 05, 2008, 06:20:39 PM
http://img372.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc00020jy1.jpg
The experimental ball me and my driller are using is just about right on the middle and needs some more shortening on the ring. Don't know exact numbers or anything because it's kept at the pro shop.
Edited on 6/5/2008 6:22 PM
Post by: the pooh on June 05, 2008, 06:35:52 PM
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the pooh
Post by: onlybowling on June 05, 2008, 06:45:32 PM
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OnlyBowling
Post by: Jay on June 05, 2008, 08:44:58 PM
Dynoman: Is that span relaxed for you? I assume you don't squeeze anymore either. You have a decent sized hand if that is relaxed. I know I have small hands, hence my span when it's midway between my first two creases of my fingers.
That reminds me, are you supposed to have just enough room for a pencil between your hand and the ball with the ball at your side or if you're supporting the weight with your non-bowling hand?
Edited on 6/5/2008 8:48 PM
Post by: JohnP on June 05, 2008, 09:55:00 PM
quote:
That reminds me, are you supposed to have just enough room for a pencil between your hand and the ball with the ball at your side or if you're supporting the weight with your non-bowling hand?
The ball should be hanging free by your side -- no support from the other hand with thumb and fingers fully inserted. By the way, this isn't a standard test. The driller that taught me showed it to me and I've used it ever since and find it to be quite accurate. I don't know if any others use it or not. -- JohnP
Post by: JessN16 on June 05, 2008, 10:08:15 PM
As I'm starting to get confused with all the back and forth, when someone says "first finger joint," are you talking about the joint closest to the fingernail?
Jess
Post by: Jay on June 05, 2008, 10:19:45 PM
When I do the pencil test even though my ring finger span isn't short enough, it seems like there's too much room for the pencil. I think I can fit my index finger in there but I haven't tried it.
Post by: Jay on June 06, 2008, 12:13:36 AM
Post by: JohnP on June 06, 2008, 11:13:03 AM
Post by: Jay on June 06, 2008, 04:00:19 PM
The MF span on the experimental ball might be too short by 1/16 or 1/8 if that but the ring still is long according to the "leading edge should be midway between the first two creases" span test. The only thing that makes it feel too short is that there seems to be too much room for a pencil. Do I need to go by the "first crease of your fingers should be halfway in the holes/grips" span test? That seems more logical for the pencil test to work but hardly anyone uses that method anymore.
Post by: JohnP on June 06, 2008, 10:04:52 PM
Post by: Jay on June 06, 2008, 11:13:54 PM
Me and my driller are very close to that on the experimental ball now. It's right there on the ring finger but about 1/8 too short on the middle finger. I can't fit my index finger in between my palm and the ball(with it hanging at my side) like I think I could before. A pencil goes in there quite easily, but won't slip through. Once my middle finger span is right it should be just about right.
Overall, since I'd been bowling with a stretched span for a couple years, this span feels quite short. As it stands, I'm going to need at least 1/2 forward in the thumb so it stays on my hand with less effort on my part, maybe more. Does that seem bad?
Edited on 6/8/2008 7:01 PM
Post by: Jay on June 08, 2008, 09:04:18 PM
Post by: the pooh on June 08, 2008, 10:00:33 PM
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the pooh
Post by: the pooh on June 08, 2008, 10:05:35 PM
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the pooh
Post by: Magic Carpet on June 09, 2008, 08:46:28 AM
http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/btm05_files/btm5.htm
Bowl great!
Ron Clifton
Post by: JohnP on June 09, 2008, 08:45:55 PM
Post by: Jay on June 09, 2008, 09:45:02 PM
That said, the span we put on the esperimental ball I've been messing with is actually on the short side now, and probably need 1/8 to 3/16 longer. After that I should be fine and I'll probably need 5/8 forward in the thumb, maybe more.
Edited on 6/9/2008 9:45 PM
Post by: TBS1 on June 10, 2008, 04:21:50 PM
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James McCarter
Co-Owner/Operator
The Bowlers Solution INC
Post by: Jay on June 10, 2008, 04:57:54 PM
Post by: TBS1 on June 10, 2008, 07:24:01 PM
You don't necessarily have to go that drastic on the pitches. Generally I only go 1/16 to 1/8th increments on experiments.
Have you tried not beveling the thumb hole so much. By keeping the thumb sharp, if you squeeze you will know it immediately.
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James McCarter
Co-Owner/Operator
The Bowlers Solution INC
Post by: Jay on June 10, 2008, 11:50:52 PM
A sharp edge on my thumb hole is just going to irritate me. I hear about less bevel making the ball stay on the thumb longer but that doesn't seem to be making much difference, except for more pain.