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Author Topic: PAP.. More about the ball and less about the bowler?  (Read 2740 times)

Strapper_Squared

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PAP.. More about the ball and less about the bowler?
« on: May 15, 2008, 01:35:13 AM »
Previously, I had always been under the impression that a person's PAP was unique to them and their release, and would be identical regardless of the ball being thrown.  However, last night during a practice / coaching session, I found that not to be the case.  On my DT American Eagle spare ball, I traced out the track and measured a PAP of 5 13/16" over and 7/8" up.  I put tape on that spot and threw it multiple times, confirming that was indeed my PAP.  Even had others watch to verify.  Based upon that measurement, I had been laying out my other equipment.    

Last night during practice/coaching, I decided to put a piece of tape on the Nebula I was throwing.  Measured out the 5 13/16" over and 7/8" up and threw the ball.  The tape wasn't even remotely close to my PAP.  After making adjustments to the tape to find the PAP, it measured out being 5 3/8" over and about 1/4" up.  

Thinking that I was somehow throwing the two balls differently (even though they are drilled identical), I had my coach perform the same exercise with his spare ball (Viz-A-Ball) and two strike balls.  His spare ball was 6 1/4" over and 5/8" up, but both his new Gladiator and Cobalt Solid were 5 3/8" over and 3/8" up!  Maybe even more odd is that when I threw his equipment (slightly longer span and larger thumb), the marked PAPs were identical for me as well.

So, it seems (at least from our simple tests) that the particular ball can have a substantial influence on PAP.

S^2


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LowRG

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Re: PAP.. More about the ball and less about the bowler?
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2008, 09:39:51 AM »
I have always been under the impression that the amount of flare dictates PAP.  When measuring for a layout, always use a ball with equivalent differentials to measure PAP.
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Strapper_Squared

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Re: PAP.. More about the ball and less about the bowler?
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2008, 09:48:19 AM »
I thought it was independent of flare..being the initial axis upon leaving your hand...

S^2
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J_Mac

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Re: PAP.. More about the ball and less about the bowler?
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2008, 10:01:28 AM »
Balls will try to find a stable axis of rotation even in the air...

Use the PAP found on the spare ball since it's the most likely to be your true PAP.

In reality the difference you saw makes less than 1/4" difference in the Pin to PAP measurements.


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livespive

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Re: PAP.. More about the ball and less about the bowler?
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2008, 10:02:09 AM »
IT is, that is why they tell you to use a flareless ball to measure so that
it is easy to measure.  The reason for the flareless ball is that when you throw
it the position that the ball is in when it comes off of your hand will just about be the same by the time it makes it down the lane where you can see it.
If you were to tape yourself throwing the ball with the tape on your pap using a
flareless ball the tape would never move all the way down the lane.

I would say that it is a combiniation of the  bowler, and the ball.
I my opinion, and experience, the RG/core shape plays a big roll with my pap
because the RG effects the way I release the ball.  I like lower RG equipment.
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BowlingWolf

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Re: PAP.. More about the ball and less about the bowler?
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2008, 10:04:15 AM »
One thing to remember is that no two balls will ever feel alike after drilling, even if using a thumb mold and having everything drilled by the same pro shop professional, thus the subtle changes in ball roll which affect PAP location slightly, but not enough to say it's so dramatic that one's game playing is altered much.

Sticking to proper execution fundamentals and not worrying how the ball is rolling, is, in my opinion, a much more important factor regarding consistency.

And yes, total ball flare is insignificant, as only the first ring (the one closest to the thumb and fingers) is the one that is used to determine PAP location.


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JohnP

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Re: PAP.. More about the ball and less about the bowler?
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2008, 11:55:25 AM »
When you determine a PAP on a flaring ball you have to watch the tape as soon as it leaves the bowler's hand, even before it hits the lane, especially if it's a high flaring ball.  And the tape will appear stationary only for a fleeting moment.  --  JohnP
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Strapper_Squared

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Re: PAP.. More about the ball and less about the bowler?
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2008, 12:05:03 PM »
Agreed...  that was our approach.  have one person standing directly behind, watching the tape as it leaves the hand (or as close as one could determine).  We found that with all the high performance balls, the tape had already moved by a few feet down the lane (by the time the person throwing the ball could pick it up), but off the hand we had it correct.  I could see releasing a ball a little differently due to fit, but in one of the cases, the horizontal component of the PAP was nearly 1" different (6 1/4" to 5 3/8").  I'd say that's a major difference.  This thing has been bugging me all day.  I'm going to go back and with the video camera verify that the tape is on the PAP directly upon release.  If that's the case, then either both of us were using quite a different release between spare ball and resin OR PAP isn't quite as directly related to release as I had once though...

S^2  




quote:
When you determine a PAP on a flaring ball you have to watch the tape as soon as it leaves the bowler's hand, even before it hits the lane, especially if it's a high flaring ball.  And the tape will appear stationary only for a fleeting moment.  --  JohnP

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BowlingWolf

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Re: PAP.. More about the ball and less about the bowler?
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2008, 02:34:08 PM »
quote:
but in one of the cases, the horizontal component of the PAP was nearly 1" different (6 1/4" to 5 3/8")


I agree that bowling core dynamics can impact one's track/PAP.

But when it comes to a nearly 1" lower initial track ring (therefore lowering one's PAP), the release is the main cause of such an effect.
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zone

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Re: PAP.. More about the ball and less about the bowler?
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2008, 02:41:36 PM »
i have to differnt balls the same weight and same layout i throw with the same hand position and play the same line. ball A has the track 1" from thumb and almost 3" from fingers. ball B has track 3" from thumb and 1" from fingers. only different is weight block.
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BowlingWolf

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Re: PAP.. More about the ball and less about the bowler?
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2008, 02:59:18 PM »
quote:
i have to differnt balls the same weight and same layout i throw with the same hand position and play the same line. ball A has the track 1" from thumb and almost 3" from fingers. ball B has track 3" from thumb and 1" from fingers. only different is weight block.
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Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, are you sure your hand isn't going around the ball a little more on the one that you track 3" from the thumb?

Just way too much of a difference.

You may be holding the ball at the setup with the same hand position, but that doesn't mean you're letting go of it the same way.


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zone

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Re: PAP.. More about the ball and less about the bowler?
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2008, 03:05:21 PM »
absolutly positive im releasing it the same. the too balls are lane masters kong and massive impact. to completely differnt weight blocks both are rico drilled. both are 14lbs
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zone

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Re: PAP.. More about the ball and less about the bowler?
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2008, 03:07:21 PM »
those measurements are not exact i was just guessing the difference. the massive impact is the only ball i have ever had that tracks futher from the thumb and closer to the fingers. my track normally points the other way
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stormed1

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Re: PAP.. More about the ball and less about the bowler?
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2008, 06:09:17 PM »
A long time ago at a Hammer seminar I asked Mo Pinel about that as my U dots etc had one axis but my balls that flared had a different one and he told me it was purely because the balls were flaring in the air before they hit the lane .He said always use your axis based off your non flaring balls
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BowlingWolf

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Re: PAP.. More about the ball and less about the bowler?
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2008, 11:18:45 AM »
quote:
A long time ago at a Hammer seminar I asked Mo Pinel about that as my U dots etc had one axis but my balls that flared had a different one and he told me it was purely because the balls were flaring in the air before they hit the lane .He said always use your axis based off your non flaring balls


I know Mo has said this, and he is undoubtedly a very knowledgeable man, but he is human and prone to error like everyone else.

My track used to be all over the place as I was learning the game (still am, but obviously after so many years, my release has finally become as consistent as it's ever going to be).  

My ball's track used to change on any given day and no matter what ball I was using, and I was still scoring pretty well.  The difference though, was in the approach/release.

The more consistent one gets to the line, and the more consistent one gets with laying down the ball on the lane at a low plane, the more consistent the release becomes with any given ball, flaring or non-flaring.  

This doesn't mean that one's roll won't change ever so slightly due to core dynamics of a ball, but when that change is drastic, in my opinion, either the bowler is releasing it differently without realizing it (the likely cause being one’s mechanics), or the span/pitches of the ball are not the same in every drilled ball.

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BowlingWolf
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