Author Topic: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future.. (Read 9357 times)

Juggernaut · « **on:** March 27, 2009, 09:35:38 AM »

This is a reply post that Pat Duggan made in a thread about bowlingballmall and its purported demise. Pat also stated that www.Bowlingballmall.com is indeed alive and well.

I thought this was worth more people seeing, so I cut and pasted it here. I hope Pat doesn't mind.

quote:
Thanks for the reply. You are correct, we are going to do something soon about the site. The site is outdated, but in honesty we do have many of the items instock still. Our site is outdated, but to say we are done, kaput, toast, is an outright lie.

We we one of the first online websites around. We offered fair prices that usually with shipping was the same as a pro shop or maybe 10.00 cheaper at the most, and that would be mostly due to the fact the customer did not have to pay sales tax. We did a robust business and everyone was happy.

We offer more than just changing boxes, we spend time with our customers giving advice and help, (I have spent over 2 hours with a customer before), as I love to teach and help bowlers. Spending over 10 years on the PWBA tour with my wife Anne Marie and some of that time as a ball Rep for Storm, we do have insight that can be benefical to a bowler, and immensly enjoy giving back and helping bowlers.
Along with Fred Borden, in 1996 we were first to use C.A.T.S. as a teaching tool, and set up a C.A.T.S. lane in Salt Lake City at the ABC tournament and in 1997 in Reno we also set up Lane 81 with C.A.T.S for the WIBC and gave over 1400 lessons with the women. We also did the A.B.C. Tournament and the W.I.B.C tournaments in 1998. We have over 50,000 happy customers who constantly stay in touch. We work off of word of mouth and repeat business.

A few years back we were going full steam ahead with a new design and pushing forward when, we decided that we did not want to participate in the destruction of brick and mortar shops. So we went a different route and have been selling mostly older equipment online, and have fun actually helping customers get that old favorite ball they wished they could find one more time.

We also had personal reasons for slowing down the website as we had an elderly family member that we had to take care of on a daily basis for the last 4 years, who just passed this Jan.

We do intend to update the website before the fall season, but make no mistake we have a lot of inventory old and new.

But please hear me bowlers. These cheap prices are a cancer. It is like seeing a beautiful home and it looks great on the outside, but inside it is being destroyed by termites and it slowly falling apart. This is what is happening to the Brick and Mortar Pro Shops. Make no mistake, good people, people with knowledge and who really care about the bowler are being killed by these discount online bowling sites. The pro shop business is not a get rich quick business for most, and it is hard to make less than 40% gross margins and still make a decent living. Just look at the numbers. Most pro shops in this country do less than 100,000 in sales a year, but many are operated by knowledgable, caring, people. These people have family, kids that what to go to college, eat, etc.

One day you will walk into a bowling center and things will look like they did decades ago. The guy at the counter will tell that when the mechanic gets time he will drill your ball and give you a lesson.

In my humble opinion bowling is slowly turning into a total recreational leisure time activity, the sport end is slowly but surly dieing and going away. Not having qualified, knowledgable proshop operators will be the demise of bowling as a "SPORT".

I am also an advid golfer, 4 hdcp. I cannot purchase any top of the line golf ball, golf club, golf shoes, any cheaper online than I can at a brick and mortar shop. The PGA and golf manufacturers have made sure their club pros are protected and that they can make a decent living and are there to help and promote the game of golf, they are the first line ambassadors for their sport, and get the income and respect they deserve from their industry. This is not the case the the bowling industry.

Okay, I wrote a book, but this has been on my chest for over 6 years. Please think about this bowlers, short term gain, for long term loss.

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Norm Duke was right

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Steven · « **Reply #1 on:** March 27, 2009, 06:03:01 PM »

Wow, Pat Duggan really seems to be a class act. Many of the things he wrote are spot on and should be taken to heart by anyone who loves bowling as a sport:

quote:
A few years back we were going full steam ahead with a new design and pushing forward when, we decided that we did not want to participate in the destruction of brick and mortar shops.......

But please hear me bowlers. These cheap prices are a cancer. It is like seeing a beautiful home and it looks great on the outside, but inside it is being destroyed by termites and it slowly falling apart. This is what is happening to the Brick and Mortar Pro Shops......

One day you will walk into a bowling center and things will look like they did decades ago. The guy at the counter will tell that when the mechanic gets time he will drill your ball and give you a lesson.

It's all sad but true. So called 'bowlers' will willingly contribute to the destruction of bowling as we know it to save $10-$30 bucks. We can only hope that the manufacturers will wake up and stop the madness.

Edited on 3/27/2009 8:49 PM

qstick777 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 27, 2009, 10:41:28 PM »

Let's see if I can put this down and have it make sense.

One of the main problems is the increase in productivity of the manufacturers. They are able to produce more in a shorter amount of time.

The manufacturers have a lot of money invested in equipment. They don't make any money when the equipment is sitting there idle.

I've only been bowling since 2004, but I've heard that equipment is now much cheaper than it used to be. As the companies are able to produce more efficiently, they have passed on the savings.

The companies don't make money by building a product and letting it sit in a warehouse. Higher quantities at lower prices - you make money by moving volume.

You can try to blame the online shops for "killing" retail pro shops, but they are able to purchase the large quantities that the manufacturers are producing. Even if they are not buying directly from the manufacturers, they are getting them from the distributors. The distributors have a lot of money invested in inventory.

The bowling population is finicky and want to see new products - ever read the forums here and see all the "so, what's next" threads? They usually start popping up about 2 months after all the new releases.

So, you could even go so far as to say that WE are the reason for all of this. Stop buying all the new stuff and maybe they'll stop making it. Really, can you blame some of them for manipulating oil absorption (and coverstock longevity) so that balls die and we have to buy more?

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Buddy Christ · « **Reply #3 on:** March 27, 2009, 10:46:22 PM »

quote:
So, you could even go so far as to say that WE are the reason for all of this. Stop buying all the new stuff and maybe they'll stop making it. Really, can you blame some of them for manipulating oil absorption (and coverstock longevity) so that balls die and we have to buy more?

--------------------
Unoffical Ballreviews.com FAQ

Search Ballreviews entire database here

"The Founding Fathers knew a government can't control the economy without controlling people. And they knew when a government sets out to do that, it must use force and coercion to achieve its purpose."

"Government is not the solution to our problems - government is the problem."

That's how everything is! It's called planned obsolescense. It's what keeps the cycle of consuming moving. If nothing were to break, there would be no reason for anything really to still be in production.
--------------------
Sean from Chicago
KILLWHITNEYDEAD
Viva La Marijuana!

Mike Austin · « **Reply #4 on:** March 28, 2009, 12:04:42 AM »

Pat and Anne Marie are awesome people, they love bowling, helping bowlers advance their games. I have had many conversations with them, as we have similar passions about bowling and the pro shop industry. I'm so glad they are my friends.

quote:

You can try to blame the online shops for "killing" retail pro shops, but they are able to purchase the large quantities that the manufacturers are producing. Even if they are not buying directly from the manufacturers, they are getting them from the distributors. The distributors have a lot of money invested in inventory.

The online shops don't purchase in large quantities, but they do move product. Most all of it is never seen by the online retailer. The problem is not really the etailers as much as it is the distributors. If the distributors sold the pro shops at the same price as etailers, then the brick and mortars would be able to try and compete on a closer to level playing field. The distributors, in their haste to move product, slashed prices to the etailers, but not to the shops.

over and over again...
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THIS SPACE FOR RENT

Atochabsh · « **Reply #5 on:** March 28, 2009, 07:58:56 AM »

Right. If I could buy a ball for the price some of these online sellers are selling their balls at, I would make a bit more. But when online sellers are selling balls, with shipping and with drilling for $10 more then I can get it, I cannot compete with that.

For the new and new-er bowler the online prices are intoxicating. It makes them willing to wait two weeks to get their purchase and take on the risk of not getting what they expected. But most NEW bowlers wouldn't know what is a good ball or not. So they rely on the local pro shop(even though they don't know it yet) to drill that ball in a manner that at least makes it usable. I mean all round bowling balls are usable. But the dynamic balls of today have expectations built into them.

Most of these online buyers are one hit wonders. They don't buy multiple balls like many dedicated league bowlers or old school guys that like to stick with what they know. Only the pro shop has the ability to take a non league bowler, new bowler, sell them or drill them a ball and create a dedicated lover of the sport. So in some cases the online sellers are contributing to bowlers that are just out there once in a while to bowl because they are not building any reparte that might stimulate that person to become a more dedicated bowler.

Erin

Smash49 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 28, 2009, 09:48:09 AM »

If you follow the shipping labels on the boxes back to the source in some cases it leads to the distributor not the online retailer. I know one distributor that direct drop ships for at least one online retailer and probably more. So if the distributor is drop shipping, the online retailer has to stock nothing or almost nothing. You could have a couple of guys in an apartment with a catalog and an internet connection as your online pro shop.

Smash49
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Smash49

Slick, tacky, wood or synthetic it does not matter your slide is correct with SLSM Designs Bowlers Slide Sock. The Finest Slide Sock on the Planet!!!
www.bowlersslidesock.com
Striking Cat Bowling Pro Shop, Duncan Oklahoma! IBPSIA Certified Technician
www.strikingcatbowling.com

pin-chaser · « **Reply #7 on:** March 28, 2009, 06:43:34 PM »

I would suspect that $200+ bowling balls in brick and morter shops is the primary reason people are willing to trouble themselves with saving money by purchasing online, having it delivered and then taking it to the local shop and having it drilled.

If prices for bowling balls were "reasonable" to begin with, there would not be so much interest in saving 10 to 20 percent for all the added online aggrivation.

And who in the end is taking the risk? It used to be the proshop operator. If he miss drills the ball, the ball cracks during drilling, the ball has a defect, Now, you buy off line, all the proshop operator has to do is to get you to walk out the door. And for that he is being paid 25-40 for drilling and we are left to deal with any warranty issues.

The more we buy online, the more the cost of drilling to keep the doors open. The spiral can not stop now that it is started. I agree with bowling will become simply more of a passtime. There already is no integrity.

Steven · « **Reply #8 on:** March 29, 2009, 05:24:29 PM »

pin-chaser: Do you agree with what Pat Duggan had to say, or do you disagree in part or in whole?

gojr1815 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 30, 2009, 06:40:28 AM »

The reason I will pay a little more at a pro shop is for warranty issues. Plus I deal with a guy I trust. That is a big deal with me. He is expensive but my confidence in him is great.
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Why Jr Why

RyanRPS · « **Reply #10 on:** March 30, 2009, 07:51:02 AM »

Simple solution as I see it - Manufacturers and Distributors selling to online stores can stipulate what minimum price the product has to be sold for, and put it in line with what a bowler would buy it for undrilled from their local proshop. I guess if the average drilling fee is around $50, and a ball retails in a proshop for $200, then a minimum online price of $150 should be put on the ball so that it makes no financial difference to buy online...

Of course, for this to work all manufacturers and distributors need to be thinking along the same lines, as if company X put their online price at $X and company Y leaves the online retailer to sell at whatever price they want, a customer may just opt for the cheaper brand, regardless of which they would prefer on an even price footing.

I don think online shops serve a very good purpose for getting your hands on hard to find, discontunied, and old equipment.

Ryan

kjl456 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 30, 2009, 09:24:03 AM »

I have a question - for both the pro shop operators and bowlers - How much is too much? If you take into account drilling fees (including whatever extras you use - grips(here the markup seems outrageous, in my area anyway shops charge $4-5 to replace one grip), thumb slug, etc.) how much extra is the pro shop entitled to - $10, $25, $50 - more? In my area the differentials are highly inconsistent - shop charges $160 for a Hy-Road drilled with grips, charges $38 to drill something else including grips and one can buy a Hy-Road on the internet for $120 shipped - no one in my area should buy a Hy-road on the internet - shop is making a couple of $ and adds all services alluded to above. Same analysis on Columbia Power Swing(different result) - he's charging $213 drilled with grips. You can do $133 internet, even less on ebay. $213 - $171 = looks like he's making $42. Is that "too much"? I'm curious.

Mike Austin · « **Reply #12 on:** March 30, 2009, 11:25:29 AM »

quote:
I have a question - for both the pro shop operators and bowlers - How much is too much? If you take into account drilling fees (including whatever extras you use - grips(here the markup seems outrageous, in my area anyway shops charge $4-5 to replace one grip), thumb slug, etc.) how much extra is the pro shop entitled to - $10, $25, $50 - more? In my area the differentials are highly inconsistent - shop charges $160 for a Hy-Road drilled with grips, charges $38 to drill something else including grips and one can buy a Hy-Road on the internet for $120 shipped - no one in my area should buy a Hy-road on the internet - shop is making a couple of $ and adds all services alluded to above. Same analysis on Columbia Power Swing(different result) - he's charging $213 drilled with grips. You can do $133 internet, even less on ebay. $213 - $171 = looks like he's making $42. Is that "too much"? I'm curious.

It is for you, the consumer to decide what is "too much". Then again, $42 on one ball is not very much money in the big picture. Most shops aren't drilling 100 balls a month at that $42 profit point. If your operator does good work, has good knowledge, has a good location, then he very well may be able to command the higher price. If you feel the price is not justified by the service he provides, then you as a customer have the freedom to go to another pro shop.

How good is your operator? Can they even mark off the lines the same way twice, much less hit said lines? What is their knowledge of the game of bowling, the art of drilling? So many people think it's dead easy to ram three holes in a bowling ball. (Yes, I know it is not rocket science either) These same people cry wolf when they get two balls drilled and they are an 1/8th difference in span and "I drop my Hy Road, but I can't pry off my Maxx Zone".

There is a difference between a Pro Shop Professional and a ball driller. The driller pounds holes in balls, and probably not consistently well at that. Lots of guys can do that. A Pro takes care of his customers on so many levels. Fitting, drilling, surfaces, lane play, layouts, physical game, mental game, a guy/lady with experiences in all of these facets, just cannot be underestimated. There are truly not as many of these people as you think. These Pros rightfully deserve to command more money for the services they DO charge you for than mr. hole crammer. Many times they give much of theirselves away for the love of the game in advice, coaching, polishing, etc...

These ideas are lost on many, the higher average bowlers that know everything already. BUT, for the MAJORITY of bowlers, the 200 and under players, a good pro shop operator can be invaluable in advancing your game.

In the end, the pro shop industry is a business. You have to sell for more than you buy for. This "more" has to be enough to cover your fixed expenses too, rent, insurance, tools, salary(s), electric, phone, internet, so on.... NOBODY and I mean NOBODY is getting RICH in the pro shop industry. I don't know any that drive Escalades and where Tommy Hilfiger all the time. At least not by making their money legally. Most all of the ones that do appear to be really successful probably have a spouse that makes pretty good money also. I know that was the case for me too, I did well in my shop, I won't lie. I worked my ash off, but my wife made more than me easy and benefits.....

If you have a good pro shop, try and support them how you can. I will be the first to agree that times are tough. Even if you do continue to buy off the internet and take it in to the shop, throw him/her a coke or $10 once in awhile for jobs well done. Those little things are appreciated. That's a little love, and love of the game is what most operators are in the business for, specially the good ones.

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THIS SPACE FOR RENT

normy · « **Reply #13 on:** March 30, 2009, 02:24:30 PM »

I agree with your point Mike that there is a difference between a hole puncher and a professional. The few guys I have had drill my equipment has looked at me funny when I ask if they want to know my PAP. So why should I pay 240 dollars for a ball that I can buy off the internet for 130 shipped. After my 50 for drilling the ball its still only 180. So they need another $60 in profit? Thats $110 in profit for them. To just punch it up how I tell them to.

The type of shop you describe Mike I would probably pay the extra money in but it just seems mythical to me.

86camaroman · « **Reply #14 on:** March 30, 2009, 02:42:14 PM »

Yes I agree mythical I have heard of such great proshops but I have not ever seen one out of all the shops around here in a 20 mile radius there is 4 and none of them have a clue about anything yes they can put holes in a ball ask them your pap and they will laugh and shoot you a number they dont even know how to find your pap and to lay a ball out based on your pap again yeah right every ball you buy they put the pin at 1oclock only way they know how too thats the reason I bought everything to drill my own stuff I have only been doing it for a year and I feel like I know a crap load more then the shops around here I am no professional shop like the mythical ones but bi golly I can lay a ball out using several techniques

Author Topic: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future.. (Read 9357 times)

Juggernaut

Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

Steven

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

qstick777

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

Buddy Christ

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

Mike Austin

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

Atochabsh

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

Smash49

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

pin-chaser

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

Steven

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

gojr1815

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

RyanRPS

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

kjl456

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

Mike Austin

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

normy

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

86camaroman

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..