Author Topic: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future.. (Read 9359 times)

Juggernaut · « **on:** March 27, 2009, 09:35:38 AM »

This is a reply post that Pat Duggan made in a thread about bowlingballmall and its purported demise. Pat also stated that www.Bowlingballmall.com is indeed alive and well.

I thought this was worth more people seeing, so I cut and pasted it here. I hope Pat doesn't mind.

quote:
Thanks for the reply. You are correct, we are going to do something soon about the site. The site is outdated, but in honesty we do have many of the items instock still. Our site is outdated, but to say we are done, kaput, toast, is an outright lie.

We we one of the first online websites around. We offered fair prices that usually with shipping was the same as a pro shop or maybe 10.00 cheaper at the most, and that would be mostly due to the fact the customer did not have to pay sales tax. We did a robust business and everyone was happy.

We offer more than just changing boxes, we spend time with our customers giving advice and help, (I have spent over 2 hours with a customer before), as I love to teach and help bowlers. Spending over 10 years on the PWBA tour with my wife Anne Marie and some of that time as a ball Rep for Storm, we do have insight that can be benefical to a bowler, and immensly enjoy giving back and helping bowlers.
Along with Fred Borden, in 1996 we were first to use C.A.T.S. as a teaching tool, and set up a C.A.T.S. lane in Salt Lake City at the ABC tournament and in 1997 in Reno we also set up Lane 81 with C.A.T.S for the WIBC and gave over 1400 lessons with the women. We also did the A.B.C. Tournament and the W.I.B.C tournaments in 1998. We have over 50,000 happy customers who constantly stay in touch. We work off of word of mouth and repeat business.

A few years back we were going full steam ahead with a new design and pushing forward when, we decided that we did not want to participate in the destruction of brick and mortar shops. So we went a different route and have been selling mostly older equipment online, and have fun actually helping customers get that old favorite ball they wished they could find one more time.

We also had personal reasons for slowing down the website as we had an elderly family member that we had to take care of on a daily basis for the last 4 years, who just passed this Jan.

We do intend to update the website before the fall season, but make no mistake we have a lot of inventory old and new.

But please hear me bowlers. These cheap prices are a cancer. It is like seeing a beautiful home and it looks great on the outside, but inside it is being destroyed by termites and it slowly falling apart. This is what is happening to the Brick and Mortar Pro Shops. Make no mistake, good people, people with knowledge and who really care about the bowler are being killed by these discount online bowling sites. The pro shop business is not a get rich quick business for most, and it is hard to make less than 40% gross margins and still make a decent living. Just look at the numbers. Most pro shops in this country do less than 100,000 in sales a year, but many are operated by knowledgable, caring, people. These people have family, kids that what to go to college, eat, etc.

One day you will walk into a bowling center and things will look like they did decades ago. The guy at the counter will tell that when the mechanic gets time he will drill your ball and give you a lesson.

In my humble opinion bowling is slowly turning into a total recreational leisure time activity, the sport end is slowly but surly dieing and going away. Not having qualified, knowledgable proshop operators will be the demise of bowling as a "SPORT".

I am also an advid golfer, 4 hdcp. I cannot purchase any top of the line golf ball, golf club, golf shoes, any cheaper online than I can at a brick and mortar shop. The PGA and golf manufacturers have made sure their club pros are protected and that they can make a decent living and are there to help and promote the game of golf, they are the first line ambassadors for their sport, and get the income and respect they deserve from their industry. This is not the case the the bowling industry.

Okay, I wrote a book, but this has been on my chest for over 6 years. Please think about this bowlers, short term gain, for long term loss.

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Norm Duke was right

Good transactions list in my profile

My Bowl.com member page

Walking E · « **Reply #31 on:** March 30, 2009, 06:16:43 PM »

quote:
Kraken,

Timtheputterman is not a good example, apples and oranges. I am sure Timtheputterman does not have an account with Callaway, and therefore they have no control over him. Who knows where these clubs came from. Staffers get clubs and sell them to guys like this. There also have been a fair share of fakes sold on E-Bay made in Asia and look exactly the same, not saying this is the case with timtheputterman, but E-Bay is not where I would buy my NEW golf clubs for the reasons above. This not a good example.

I am a memeber of a country club. Titlest golf balls are in the 50+ dollar range and they charge more money as they need make a higher profit margin to be able to have qualified assistant pros that all the members benefit from, we know this and support them. But I could go down to Golf Galaxy and pay 45.99 in a Brick & Mortar Golf Shop, or I could go to Golf Galaxy online and guess what, I will still pay 45.99. Point being, can't save money online with these golf balls, as they do not use their Internet site to discount their product line, plain and simple.

Here is another good example. Taylormade just came out with a new Driver the R9. Price at Golf Galaxy brick and mortar shop 399.99, price at their online site 399.99.
Another huge internet site www.TGW.com has the R9 driver for 399.99 with a statement that says: Our Price: $399.99 Discounts cannot be applied to this product. And to use your own example www.golfdiscount.com has the Taylormade R9 for 399.99 with the same statement Discounts cannot be applied to this product.

I think I made my point here. I cannot save any money on this driver by shopping online from a reputable source. A reputable source is someone that has an account with the manufacturer and is controlled by the industry.

Edited on 3/30/2009 6:04 PM

Is there a difference in tax collected in an example like this? For instance, I would assume that the B&M shop would collect a sales tax, whereas many internet sites do not. If that was the case in this example, then that would result in a $30-$40 difference between ordering online vs. a B&M shop.

Don't get me wrong - back when I was actively bowling, I NEVER purchased a bowling ball online. I am a strong believer in supporting the local pro shops, even if it costs me more.
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Official Member of the BrunsTrackColumStormHammEboRotoBuzzAMF Nation!

Also a member of ROB STONE NATION

1MechEng · « **Reply #32 on:** March 30, 2009, 07:06:36 PM »

I'm going to play devils advocate here ...

Why haven't the local B&M pro shops taken the jump to try to sell online also and raise their volumes to help increase their profit margins?!
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Dan
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Engineering * Bowling = a fun and practical application of rotational kinematics.

Bowling Nerd Herd (TM) Member

JessN16 · « **Reply #33 on:** March 30, 2009, 07:14:58 PM »

On the flip side, here's what I'd like to see pro shops work on as far as improving customer service, because not all of them are angels (note: I would say the majority are very professional, but anywhere between 25-40 percent of shops I've visited in the last five years suffer from one or more of the following problems):

1) General overall poor attitude.
2) Thinking that I'm a dumb*ss about layouts and/or my own game.
3) Pushing certain gear over others because they're a "Brand X shop," not because it is or isn't the right gear for me.
4) Getting pissed off when I offer suggestions or talk about what I've found works for me or what doesn't. (example: Had a driller get very huffed at me for objecting to his suggestion of a pin-down, 2.5-inch drilling on an aggressive ball. Told me that's what I needed, period.)
5) More attention to detail in their craft. Hitting the chalk lines consistently would be a good start.
6) Trying to drill their customers' balls the way they drill their own (i.e., stretched span vs. relaxed or vice versa, using their layout for me and ignoring my PAP, etc.).

As I said, this doesn't describe a majority of shops. But it does describe enough of them for me to consider it statistically significant. For some reason, bowling pro shops and golf club fitting shops seem to draw an inordinate amount of guys that have an incredible amount of arrogance coupled with the social skills of a fruit bat.

I can come here and ask questions and discuss issues with reasonable people, and gain knowledge. But how many league bowlers, even high-level ones, utilize this resource? Not many. A lot of them trust their drillers inherently and may not be getting the full picture.

Jess

Krakken · « **Reply #34 on:** March 30, 2009, 07:27:39 PM »

quote:
Kraken,

Timtheputterman is not a good example, apples and oranges. I am sure Timtheputterman does not have an account with Callaway, and therefore they have no control over him. Who knows where these clubs came from. Staffers get clubs and sell them to guys like this. There also have been a fair share of fakes sold on E-Bay made in Asia and look exactly the same, not saying this is the case with timtheputterman, but E-Bay is not where I would buy my NEW golf clubs for the reasons above. This not a good example.

I am a memeber of a country club. Titlest golf balls are in the 50+ dollar range and they charge more money as they need make a higher profit margin to be able to have qualified assistant pros that all the members benefit from, we know this and support them. But I could go down to Golf Galaxy and pay 45.99 in a Brick & Mortar Golf Shop, or I could go to Golf Galaxy online and guess what, I will still pay 45.99. Point being, can't save money online with these golf balls, as they do not use their Internet site to discount their product line, plain and simple.

Here is another good example. Taylormade just came out with a new Driver the R9. Price at Golf Galaxy brick and mortar shop 399.99, price at their online site 399.99.
Another huge internet site www.TGW.com has the R9 driver for 399.99 with a statement that says: Our Price: $399.99 Discounts cannot be applied to this product. And to use your own example www.golfdiscount.com has the Taylormade R9 for 399.99 with the same statement Discounts cannot be applied to this product.

I think I made my point here. I cannot save any money on this driver by shopping online from a reputable source. A reputable source is someone that has an account with the manufacturer and is controlled by the industry.

Edited on 3/30/2009 6:04 PM

You didn't make a point. You are trying to set limits on who I can get it from to fit your argument. It's like saying I can only buy on THursdays from stores that end in the letter V.

Bottomline is internet stores are good for the consumer. I can go out and get the same R9 driver for $359 online. No tax, no shipping. That makes it almost $70 cheaper.

They are the same clubs, authentic from Taylormade or Callaway (though you are taking a small chance on Ebay) and they are much cheaper. No one really cares if they are an "Authorized retailer" They care that they are good quality clubs at a better price.

Of course Golf Galaxy and Golfgalaxy.com are going to sell it for the same price. Why would they compete against themselves?
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes

BW · « **Reply #35 on:** March 30, 2009, 07:59:04 PM »

quote:
quote:
Kraken,

Timtheputterman is not a good example, apples and oranges. I am sure Timtheputterman does not have an account with Callaway, and therefore they have no control over him. Who knows where these clubs came from. Staffers get clubs and sell them to guys like this. There also have been a fair share of fakes sold on E-Bay made in Asia and look exactly the same, not saying this is the case with timtheputterman, but E-Bay is not where I would buy my NEW golf clubs for the reasons above. This not a good example.

I am a memeber of a country club. Titlest golf balls are in the 50+ dollar range and they charge more money as they need make a higher profit margin to be able to have qualified assistant pros that all the members benefit from, we know this and support them. But I could go down to Golf Galaxy and pay 45.99 in a Brick & Mortar Golf Shop, or I could go to Golf Galaxy online and guess what, I will still pay 45.99. Point being, can't save money online with these golf balls, as they do not use their Internet site to discount their product line, plain and simple.

Here is another good example. Taylormade just came out with a new Driver the R9. Price at Golf Galaxy brick and mortar shop 399.99, price at their online site 399.99.
Another huge internet site www.TGW.com has the R9 driver for 399.99 with a statement that says: Our Price: $399.99 Discounts cannot be applied to this product. And to use your own example www.golfdiscount.com has the Taylormade R9 for 399.99 with the same statement Discounts cannot be applied to this product.

I think I made my point here. I cannot save any money on this driver by shopping online from a reputable source. A reputable source is someone that has an account with the manufacturer and is controlled by the industry.

Edited on 3/30/2009 6:04 PM

You didn't make a point. You are trying to set limits on who I can get it from to fit your argument. It's like saying I can only buy on THursdays from stores that end in the letter V.

Bottomline is internet stores are good for the consumer. I can go out and get the same R9 driver for $359 online. No tax, no shipping. That makes it almost $70 cheaper.

They are the same clubs, authentic from Taylormade or Callaway (though you are taking a small chance on Ebay) and they are much cheaper. No one really cares if they are an "Authorized retailer" They care that they are good quality clubs at a better price.

Of course Golf Galaxy and Golfgalaxy.com are going to sell it for the same price. Why would they compete against themselves?
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes

The difference between $399 and $359 is only 10%. No pro shop in the country would be complaing about internet discounters selling $200 balls for $180.

We complain because consumers buying one ball can buy nearly as cheaply as a pro shop buying 1000 balls per year. I have no problem if a big internet site can buy balls cheaper than I do. After all, they buy a much higher volume than I do. By the same token, I should be able to by them much cheaper than the general public.

Krakken · « **Reply #36 on:** March 30, 2009, 08:06:33 PM »

WE aren't going to agree on it and that is fine. I am not talking about buying it from someone's trunk on the corner. I am talking about legitimate internet based businesses that sell as much volume as a lot of brick and mortar shops.

Ebay has thousands of businesses that sell a ton of merchandise to the public. Just because they don't have accounts with major manufacturers doesn't mean they don't count. You are trying to narrow your focus to try to make it apples to apples.

Even golf discount.com has them cheaper than you can get them in the stores. Legitimate business. Not some shady off the truck deal.

Your original point was that you said golf helps the brick and mortar shops by setting a minimum price, and they may do that to the customers that have major accounts with them. That doesn't mean that they have cut off the internet based business from taking a portion of the brick and mortar business. I very rarely buy golf supplies from a store. I always buy on the internet because I am getting the same clubs much cheaper than I can get them online. Even after I get them fitted for me.

Buying bowling balls online is the same. You can get it cheaper online, but after you pay your driller $60-$80 to drill it and put slugs in it how much are you saving?

That is the way for the brick and mortar shops to help themselves. Charge full price to drill it and you will eliminate the difference in price.
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes

normy · « **Reply #37 on:** March 30, 2009, 08:19:59 PM »

Golf is definitetly different. There is minimal savings if at all on clubs. The B&M shops fit fot free. There is no sense in paying $800 for irons and not get fitted. You will save money on balls by buying them used over the internet but thats it.

I don't know the difference in price on bowling balls, but you have to at least get them as cheap as we do online. So why are they marked up over a hundred dollars? I understand the need to make money I do, but that seems excessive.

Krakken · « **Reply #38 on:** March 30, 2009, 08:46:26 PM »

WE will have to agree to disagree. You think only authorized retailers should be allowed to sell products.

$35 for drilling, $8-$10 for inserts $10-$12 for thumbslug is about the norm here.

That is in the $60 range.

I am not about cheap, I am about getting he best value for my money.

If I can pay $100 less for the same clubs, why would I want to throw the extra $100 away?

Maybe you have that kind of money, but most here don't.
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes

1MechEng · « **Reply #39 on:** March 30, 2009, 10:31:51 PM »

quote:
Here is a "Saying" we have hanging in our Proshop: "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after sweetness of cheap price is forgotten"

Have had this hanging in our proshops for over 25 years.

This is a good saying, and it speaks well to your philosophy of content and quality over price and quantity. To you, the value of the pro shop you run is in the service and commitment to the customer. No one is saying that philosophy is not admirable nor undesirable.

The question is ... with a down economy right now, how are you going to convince the normal bowler that the values you espouse are more important than the conditioned response where price is the most important aspect of the purchase? With money in most households being tight, how do you justify the extra cost in a more tangible fashion?

More to the point ... in a free market, how do you convince (sway, change the opinion of) your potential customers to believe in your side of the argument that quality and service trumps low prices? What can you do to reach out to the customer and better advertise this "advantage"?

Remember that value is a perceived quality by both the seller and the buyer in economics, and the perceptions are often not the same! You need to raise the perceived quality of your product/service to adequately justify the extra cost to the customer to make it seem like they are getting the deal.
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Dan
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Engineering * Bowling = a fun and practical application of rotational kinematics.

Bowling Nerd Herd (TM) Member

Edited on 3/30/2009 10:36 PM

Krakken · « **Reply #40 on:** March 31, 2009, 07:15:55 AM »

quote:
Kraken,

Kraken Quote says it all: WE will have to agree to disagree. You think only authorized retailers should be allowed to sell products.

Well, Yeah!!!!!! You obviously have never been in business.

Here is a "Saying" we have hanging in our Proshop: "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after sweetness of cheap price is forgotten"

Have had this hanging in our proshops for over 25 years.

Not a bad quote, and some have been burned by it.

Here is my issue with Manufacturers setting terms on who can sell what and for what price. That sure isn't capitalism.

How would you like being told where you can buy your car? Or for how much?

Same with the house?

Why stop with golf clubs and bowling balls?

Dan's quote:
"Remember that value is a perceived quality by both the seller and the buyer in economics, and the perceptions are often not the same! You need to raise the perceived quality of your product/service to adequately justify the extra cost to the customer to make it seem like they are getting the deal."

could not agree more.

Part of your job as a pro shop operator is to do that. Don't lean on Manufacturers to tell me I have to buy from your shop or another shop. Do a better job of selling me on your product and services and most likely we will buy from you.

I do buy from an actual shop because I know the value I get from him.
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ROTO GRIP, There is NO Substitute
Slow Feet, Soft hand = Lots of strikes

Edited on 3/31/2009 7:19 AM

86camaroman · « **Reply #41 on:** March 31, 2009, 07:45:32 AM »

Its like this you buy it cheaper online because you are buying a ball that is not drilled if you add drilling services to most of them from online shops its $50 more so in reality it would only be about 10percent less then most brick and mortar shops. Also its like this I dont care who you are watch the meijer commercial a low price beats a high price everytime and thats a fact any real proshop will have no problem staying in business they have true customer following due to there skills. What we are really talking about is the proshops like we have around here yes they may bite the bullet why cause they have no skills who wants to buy a ball with a guess layout on it and have every ball feel different on there hand I have had some that were as far as a quarter inch off thats a huge mistake and several that pitches werent the same and a eight of an inch off.

pin-chaser · « **Reply #42 on:** March 31, 2009, 09:13:44 AM »

Sorry to not make myself clear in my previous post...

My argument is smiply that bowling balls cost too much... period. If bowling balls only cost $50 to buy from the manufacturer then the profit margins are not as great and the potential savings from buying online vs. brick and morter shops are not as great.

I would like to see a break down on why bowling balls cost so much. I know, R&D... lol... that relates to 1 guy with an engineering degree sitting behind a CAD program as a full time job developing cores and another degreed person to deal with coverstocks... so you got $200k invested in personell overhead. They way manufactures reused cores and covers and mix and match I just cant believe the cost of R&D can cost more than $10 per ball and materials and manufacturing cant cost more than 20 per ball. Combined with a profit margin of 100% that would be around $60 for the top of the line balls and yet they say suggested retail is +$200... you have got to be kidding me.

I think that if bowling is to reach the masses like it did once (in its hay days) it needs to make it affordable to all. This never struck me before last nite.. I walked into my monday nite league and saw display on the concorse from the proshop which consisted of: A maxium bowling ball, a pair of shoes and a single bowling bag for $129.99. I dont think that this entry level point is going to be affordable to bring new bowlers into the sport. As well, none of this stuff is going to support the current bowlers (unless they need a spare ball and give away the bag and shoes).

BowlingBallMall,

I live in a city where I believe I have as much knowledge about the game, layouts, ball reaction, covers, cores and experience (both bowling and running a proshop) than anyone in the business. I do believe that I am also not the typical bowler. That being the case, I have a complete proshop in my garage not for profit but for me and my children. HOWEVER, if I beleived that I or my kids would benifit from the experience and knowledge from any brick and morter shop within a 5 hour drive I would certianly use them. In fact, I want to take both my son and myself to a "GREAT" shop where we can get the "next" level of knowledge and experience (as we have already been to Kegel a couple times). It is just a matter of deciding where to go.

I do agree with your statements, but my problem is that there is no rating system for proshops that is valid. Being a member of IPBSIA (sorry)... does not guarentee that the proshop is better or have more knowledge just as being a bronze, silver or gold certified coach suggests that they can teach bowling. So how does someone know that a shop is good? I am willing to pay more, pay for the time of the operator but not if it is not going to benifit me. Its a risk and the proshop has the advantage and FAR TO MANY over evaluate themselves and have a slick sales pitch (like a used car dealer). My son is awesome and I would pay $5000 for a week of intense coaching with the right person dedicated to taking him to the next level. NOTICE I SAID "DEDICATED"... because I have never seen any proshop operator "dedicated" to actually making someone improve.

If i ventured a guess, I would suggest that over 75% of proshops are in the business of selling balls and getting the customers out the door. Then another 20% go the extra mile of actually taking some time with customers on the lane and talking with them to try to match up balls, layouts and grips... that comprises 95%. The remaining 5% are the shops that I would pay for and happily pay to support. Where are they and how do I know?

Carlos Colon · « **Reply #43 on:** March 31, 2009, 09:36:51 AM »

Unfortunately, I will continue to go the route of buying online and just having the pro shop guy drill the balls. Saving $40-$50 a ball is nothing to sneeze at. And it doesn't help that my pro shop guy carries hardly any 16lb balls or balls from smaller companies like Lanemasters or Seismic. So he can collect my $50 to drill the ball up for me, but that's about it. Also doesn't help that he charges sales tax if I pay by credit card! Sales tax on a $200 ball is a little more than a couple pennies!

Atochabsh · « **Reply #44 on:** March 31, 2009, 12:55:18 PM »

quote:
Also doesn't help that he charges sales tax if I pay by credit card!

Are there really states in this country that only charge state sales tax if you use a credit card? I had no idea.

There's nothing the pro shops can do about state sales tax (if applicable in their state). They have to pay it or be fined. Ultimatesly not paying the sales tax will closed the doors of the pro shop for good. So don't make sales tax the pro shop's fault. It isn't. We are just the middle man where that goes. We don't get a cut.

Erin

Mike Austin · « **Reply #45 on:** March 31, 2009, 02:11:20 PM »

quote:

If i ventured a guess, I would suggest that over 75% of proshops are in the business of selling balls and getting the customers out the door. Then another 20% go the extra mile of actually taking some time with customers on the lane and talking with them to try to match up balls, layouts and grips... that comprises 95%. The remaining 5% are the shops that I would pay for and happily pay to support. Where are they and how do I know?

Why would you eliminate the 20% of good shops. You admit they go the extra mile, etc... what else do you want? (stolen from jls) You want a car wash and a happy ending too?

Where are they? All over the place, but possibly not where you live, unfortunately. How do you know, that is something I have been wanting to solve also. Word of mouth of people you trust is usually the best way to find out.

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THIS SPACE FOR RENT

Author Topic: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future.. (Read 9359 times)

Juggernaut

Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

Walking E

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

1MechEng

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

JessN16

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

Krakken

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

BW

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

Krakken

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

normy

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

Krakken

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

1MechEng

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

Krakken

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

86camaroman

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

pin-chaser

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

Carlos Colon

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

Atochabsh

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..

Mike Austin

Re: Pat Duggan ( Bowlingballmall.com) on the state of bowling, proshops, and the future..