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Author Topic: PBA/Bowlero Announcement  (Read 31240 times)

Bowler19525

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PBA/Bowlero Announcement
« on: June 23, 2022, 04:46:25 PM »
Bowlero and the PBA announced today that they are forming essentially a competing league and tournament association to counter the USBC:

https://www.pba.com/2022/june/professional-bowlers-association-launch-league-bowler-certification-program

According to JR Raymond, this is a free association for all Bowlero league bowlers starting this fall.

Raises a few immediate questions.
1)  Since all Bowlero league bowlers will be included, and the PBA/Bowlero association has their own rules, will USBC sanctioning no longer be a thing at Bowlero centers?  Opens the door for conflicting rules if both will still apply.

2)  as this rolls out to other centers, what will be the fee for non-Bowlero bowlers?

3)  Will tournaments start acknowledging the Bowlero association average as a sanctioned average for those bowlers who may have a Bowlero association average  and not a USBC average?

There is a lot of potential here, but seems like there are still a lot of unknowns...

 

SpinBowler300

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Re: PBA/Bowlero Announcement
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2022, 11:16:51 AM »
The whole point of this is to get String Pinsetters approved for league and tournament bowling. That's the only real beef that Bowlero has with the USBC. If the USBC approves String Pinsetters, this probably goes away.

In any event, all Bowlero center will have String Pinsetters in 5 to 10 years due to lower cost of maintenance. One way or the other, Bowlero is going to get it's way on String Pinsetters.
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Bowler19525

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Re: PBA/Bowlero Announcement
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2022, 11:35:50 AM »
I keep hearing the word "free" in relation to leagues of Bowlero centers. Nothing is free, in fact, if Bowlero didn't have a scheme in place to make money from this, it would not even be a consideration.

I suspect the cost to be a Bowlero/PBA association member will be much higher than the USBC membership. But you won't see it as it will be a "per game" cost instead of just buying a annual membership.

It will simply be built in to the lineage...which is reportedly going up 60 cents per week this fall in our Bowlero.  That is $19.20 for a 32 week season, which is on par with the USBC annual dues.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2022, 11:37:42 AM by Bowler19525 »

milorafferty

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Re: PBA/Bowlero Announcement
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2022, 11:43:51 AM »
I keep hearing the word "free" in relation to leagues of Bowlero centers. Nothing is free, in fact, if Bowlero didn't have a scheme in place to make money from this, it would not even be a consideration.

I suspect the cost to be a Bowlero/PBA association member will be much higher than the USBC membership. But you won't see it as it will be a "per game" cost instead of just buying a annual membership.

It will simply be built in to the lineage...which is reportedly going up 60 cents per week this fall in our Bowlero.  That is $19.20 for a 32 week season, which is on par with the USBC annual dues.

If you only bowl one league, then perhaps. But you will be paying for the "free" membership in each league you bowl.
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NY Mike

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Re: PBA/Bowlero Announcement
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2022, 12:43:42 PM »
So, if you bowl multiple leagues in Bowlero there is a never ending fee being paid through you lineage.  In addition, if you are a periodic tournament bowler you will need to establish a USBC average to compete.    One of the problems with the diminishing number of bowlers is cost, this will only add to the problem.

I seen something on one of the blog sites that mentioned, do away with money leagues and just bowl for cost of lineage.  For those that need the action,  you can always run side pots, brackets, high games, pins over and anything else that comes to mind.

Bowler19525

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Re: PBA/Bowlero Announcement
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2022, 02:08:11 PM »
So, if you bowl multiple leagues in Bowlero there is a never ending fee being paid through you lineage.  In addition, if you are a periodic tournament bowler you will need to establish a USBC average to compete.    One of the problems with the diminishing number of bowlers is cost, this will only add to the problem.

I seen something on one of the blog sites that mentioned, do away with money leagues and just bowl for cost of lineage.  For those that need the action,  you can always run side pots, brackets, high games, pins over and anything else that comes to mind.

Every bowling center recovers expenses via lineage.  If you bowl multiple leagues in a non-Bowlero you are paying lineage in each league.  No difference.

Leagues with no prize fund are fine, but people want to feel like they are bowling for something even if it just a meager payout.  Asking them to participate in side pots, brackets, card games, or whatever else will only appeal to a small subset of bowlers.

bradl

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Re: PBA/Bowlero Announcement
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2022, 02:28:51 PM »
So, if you bowl multiple leagues in Bowlero there is a never ending fee being paid through you lineage.  In addition, if you are a periodic tournament bowler you will need to establish a USBC average to compete.    One of the problems with the diminishing number of bowlers is cost, this will only add to the problem.

I seen something on one of the blog sites that mentioned, do away with money leagues and just bowl for cost of lineage.  For those that need the action,  you can always run side pots, brackets, high games, pins over and anything else that comes to mind.

Let's take this to its furthest tangent. This will still mean that every PBA bowler would still have to establish a USBC average - at a BPAA-certified alley - to be eligible to bowl in 2 of the Triple Crown tournaments/half of bowling's Grand Slam. It really wouldn't matter to them because they are already spending the money on PBA membership, so another membership wouldn't really matter, but as the Masters and the US Open are USBC events, any bowler in the Bowlero certification program would have to do the same if they want to enter those tournaments, which adds more cost onto those bowlers. In essence, while putting this certification into play, for all tournaments (Youth, city, state, regional, Nationals, Masters, US Open, etc.), Bowlero is effectively giving away those bowlers, and for some, causing those bowlers to incur double the cost.

BL.

milorafferty

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Re: PBA/Bowlero Announcement
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2022, 03:13:10 PM »
So, if you bowl multiple leagues in Bowlero there is a never ending fee being paid through you lineage.  In addition, if you are a periodic tournament bowler you will need to establish a USBC average to compete.    One of the problems with the diminishing number of bowlers is cost, this will only add to the problem.

I seen something on one of the blog sites that mentioned, do away with money leagues and just bowl for cost of lineage.  For those that need the action,  you can always run side pots, brackets, high games, pins over and anything else that comes to mind.

Every bowling center recovers expenses via lineage.  If you bowl multiple leagues in a non-Bowlero you are paying lineage in each league.  No difference.

Leagues with no prize fund are fine, but people want to feel like they are bowling for something even if it just a meager payout.  Asking them to participate in side pots, brackets, card games, or whatever else will only appeal to a small subset of bowlers.

There is a BIG difference. If $.60 is built into the linage of league fees to pay for the Bowlero/PBA membership, then you are paying it for every league you bowl. For all of USBC warts, you only pay for your membership once, not for each league.
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JessN16

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Re: PBA/Bowlero Announcement
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2022, 04:48:22 PM »

Exactly Brandl.

The company that did this and thinks building Bowlero Scottsdale with 56 foot lane beds and have "social clubs" was a good idea as opposed to adding 4 more feet and another "real center" to the ever declining lane beds across the country. We had 9k centers in 1980 and what? 3800 hundred now?.

Its so complictaded...

Call it the USBC but it just a rebranded ABC. When I shot my youth AJBC honor scores it was the ABC there the next day to check my center for compliance. Not YABA, Not the WIBC. It was the governing body set up by our sports founding fathers way back to bring equipment standardization to the game. For this I am protective of them. And this is so important and to have a non profit to act above approach.

Now comes along Bowlero whom wants to not be under a 90-100 year old governing body? That does not want to pay dues for USBC lane certification and pull 350 centers out and that contribution that helps support the fianancial health of an organization that overall has done a tremendous job for so so many decades. Its not just about the games rules, its about center and equipment certification above all and further developement of these thing. Its about not ending up bowling on string pinsetters and maintaing lane bed specifications. Its about not have high flat gutters and rounded edge boards so every scout flies out and every 7 -10 split is converted at the minimum.

Do we really want to loose 350 centers of sanctioned USBC leagues members not buying USBC cards? When we had 9 million ABC, AJBC, WIBC members as card holders in 1980 and now what a tick over 1 million? How many will we have to support the USBC when this debacle starts?

In the history of the sport the has the PBA had financial trouble? But we trust Bowlero to be above that?
In the history of the sport have Corporations that owned centers came and gone? But Bowlero is above this? Bowlero can do what Brunswick or AMF the oldest names in this sport could not or would not have considered doing?

Peeps really need to think threw before supporting an corporation that has been the biggest scourge ever to this game. A for profit that sure is motivated by that and only that and it seems to come at a time when USBC begins new physical center certifcations beginning in 2023.Go figure.

The PBA is a glorified tournament director and their events need to stay on USBC physical sactioned houses.

The BPAA needs to get back to their old ways as trade organization acting supported by every house to promote the sport.

The USBC needs to get back in and bring 75% of centers that cant pass certification up to par.

Bowlero needs to go away like most corpoations do eventually, they are not a Ford motor company. The remaining 3k centers need to get together and shot this red head ba$tard $tep child down before real damage is down. They have shown no signs of being able to convert a recreational player into any form of league player. Their managers last week worked at arby's and staff too. Their mechanics can't fix a leaking gear box, change a bad auto scorer keyboard, put end to ball and pin damage by properly maintaing ball and pin transfer systems, this would cost money.

That said, not in anyway attached to any of it.








Here's the thing, though -- a lot of those things are gone and are not coming back no matter who is running things.

I was an association president for 2 years just prior to the ABC-WIBC merger. It was a small association, yes. Still, in all the times I ever inspected lanes or ran tapes, I had one person to volunteer to help me one time. Every other time I did it myself.

I don't know if anyone here has ever laid under machines to inspect them or check pindeck tolerances or whatnot, but it's work. I bowl in a center now that only got a visit from the local association when scores got so low that they sent a guy over to make sure we weren't putting down a sport shot or otherwise sandbagging as an entire house. And they still didn't run tapes during their "investigation."

Another house I've bowled in recently in hasn't had a full-blown inspection in five years.

The PBA isn't going to go back to what it was, not as long as Bowlero owns it. The BPAA is sort of a mystery. It's technically in bed with the USBC as is, which could theoretically mean it's being a good advocate for its clientele (the centers). However, such a cozy relationship may be the reason some centers aren't inspected anymore. Which is better?

Point being, this is all a question of time, money and to a lesser extent volunteerism, and the world is different now than it was in the USBC's (ABC's) heyday. In regards to Bowlero, the optimist's position here is that Bowlero has finally realized that today's league business leads to a lot of tomorrow business, and they're going to spend the money necessary to court it. The other issue is that the USBC has bad leadership at the moment, IMO. Like ... really, really bad.

Bowler19525

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Re: PBA/Bowlero Announcement
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2022, 05:04:01 PM »
So, if you bowl multiple leagues in Bowlero there is a never ending fee being paid through you lineage.  In addition, if you are a periodic tournament bowler you will need to establish a USBC average to compete.    One of the problems with the diminishing number of bowlers is cost, this will only add to the problem.

I seen something on one of the blog sites that mentioned, do away with money leagues and just bowl for cost of lineage.  For those that need the action,  you can always run side pots, brackets, high games, pins over and anything else that comes to mind.

Every bowling center recovers expenses via lineage.  If you bowl multiple leagues in a non-Bowlero you are paying lineage in each league.  No difference.

Leagues with no prize fund are fine, but people want to feel like they are bowling for something even if it just a meager payout.  Asking them to participate in side pots, brackets, card games, or whatever else will only appeal to a small subset of bowlers.

There is a BIG difference. If $.60 is built into the linage of league fees to pay for the Bowlero/PBA membership, then you are paying it for every league you bowl. For all of USBC warts, you only pay for your membership once, not for each league.
[/quot
So, if you bowl multiple leagues in Bowlero there is a never ending fee being paid through you lineage.  In addition, if you are a periodic tournament bowler you will need to establish a USBC average to compete.    One of the problems with the diminishing number of bowlers is cost, this will only add to the problem.

I seen something on one of the blog sites that mentioned, do away with money leagues and just bowl for cost of lineage.  For those that need the action,  you can always run side pots, brackets, high games, pins over and anything else that comes to mind.

Every bowling center recovers expenses via lineage.  If you bowl multiple leagues in a non-Bowlero you are paying lineage in each league.  No difference.

Leagues with no prize fund are fine, but people want to feel like they are bowling for something even if it just a meager payout.  Asking them to participate in side pots, brackets, card games, or whatever else will only appeal to a small subset of bowlers.

There is a BIG difference. If $.60 is built into the linage of league fees to pay for the Bowlero/PBA membership, then you are paying it for every league you bowl. For all of USBC warts, you only pay for your membership once, not for each league.

The USBC has local associations.  If you sub in a house that's part of a different association, you have to pay the association fee.  Around here there are three overlapping local associations.  Bowlers pay $18 to sanction in one association, then sub in another and pay $4 to that association, then bowl in the third and pay another $4.

If I am concerned about an extra 60 cents lineage and potentially paying it two or three times a week, I shouldn't be bowling at all.  At least I'm not paying multiple association fees to local associations that do nothing for me.

milorafferty

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Re: PBA/Bowlero Announcement
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2022, 05:20:02 PM »
So, if you bowl multiple leagues in Bowlero there is a never ending fee being paid through you lineage.  In addition, if you are a periodic tournament bowler you will need to establish a USBC average to compete.    One of the problems with the diminishing number of bowlers is cost, this will only add to the problem.

I seen something on one of the blog sites that mentioned, do away with money leagues and just bowl for cost of lineage.  For those that need the action,  you can always run side pots, brackets, high games, pins over and anything else that comes to mind.

Every bowling center recovers expenses via lineage.  If you bowl multiple leagues in a non-Bowlero you are paying lineage in each league.  No difference.

Leagues with no prize fund are fine, but people want to feel like they are bowling for something even if it just a meager payout.  Asking them to participate in side pots, brackets, card games, or whatever else will only appeal to a small subset of bowlers.

There is a BIG difference. If $.60 is built into the linage of league fees to pay for the Bowlero/PBA membership, then you are paying it for every league you bowl. For all of USBC warts, you only pay for your membership once, not for each league.
[/quot
So, if you bowl multiple leagues in Bowlero there is a never ending fee being paid through you lineage.  In addition, if you are a periodic tournament bowler you will need to establish a USBC average to compete.    One of the problems with the diminishing number of bowlers is cost, this will only add to the problem.

I seen something on one of the blog sites that mentioned, do away with money leagues and just bowl for cost of lineage.  For those that need the action,  you can always run side pots, brackets, high games, pins over and anything else that comes to mind.

Every bowling center recovers expenses via lineage.  If you bowl multiple leagues in a non-Bowlero you are paying lineage in each league.  No difference.

Leagues with no prize fund are fine, but people want to feel like they are bowling for something even if it just a meager payout.  Asking them to participate in side pots, brackets, card games, or whatever else will only appeal to a small subset of bowlers.

There is a BIG difference. If $.60 is built into the linage of league fees to pay for the Bowlero/PBA membership, then you are paying it for every league you bowl. For all of USBC warts, you only pay for your membership once, not for each league.

The USBC has local associations.  If you sub in a house that's part of a different association, you have to pay the association fee.  Around here there are three overlapping local associations.  Bowlers pay $18 to sanction in one association, then sub in another and pay $4 to that association, then bowl in the third and pay another $4.

If I am concerned about an extra 60 cents lineage and potentially paying it two or three times a week, I shouldn't be bowling at all.  At least I'm not paying multiple association fees to local associations that do nothing for me.

To each their own. But no matter how you parse it out, this entire thing is intended to be a source of revenue for Bowlero. Otherwise, they would not be doing it.
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bradl

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Re: PBA/Bowlero Announcement
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2022, 06:34:30 PM »

Point being, this is all a question of time, money and to a lesser extent volunteerism, and the world is different now than it was in the USBC's (ABC's) heyday. In regards to Bowlero, the optimist's position here is that Bowlero has finally realized that today's league business leads to a lot of tomorrow business, and they're going to spend the money necessary to court it. The other issue is that the USBC has bad leadership at the moment, IMO. Like ... really, really bad.

The bold is a big thing, but the questions are:

1. Has the damage already been done? I mean, With Shannon saying what he's said, and and the actions Bowlero has put behind it, has the damage Bowlero has done to the relationship between that company and the league bowler over the past 8 years been too much to overcome?

2. Are the league bowlers' memories too short to remember what Bowlero has done to want to risk trusting them again? and

3. Has the ball ban fiasco (Spectre/infamous 6 from SPS/Purple Hammer) still fresh on the league bowlers' minds to push them away from the USBC and over to this certification program despite the damage Bowlero has done to leagues and the league bowler?

Only time can really tell on those, especially as this little tit-for-tat is going to go on for a while.

BL.


Bowler19525

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Re: PBA/Bowlero Announcement
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2022, 06:49:34 PM »
There is no doubt that Bowlero sees a chance to make some money here.  Businesses don't stay in business by giving things away. As soon as bowlers put their money in the envelope they don't think about how it gets split out (lineage, secretary fee, treasurer fee, prize fund.). They pay and bowl.

bradl

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Re: PBA/Bowlero Announcement
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2022, 08:06:25 PM »
There is no doubt that Bowlero sees a chance to make some money here.  Businesses don't stay in business by giving things away. As soon as bowlers put their money in the envelope they don't think about how it gets split out (lineage, secretary fee, treasurer fee, prize fund.). They pay and bowl.

Oh, I agree that there's a chance for money to be made here, but the issue here is if the league bowler is willing to eat from the hand that feeds them, without realizing that that same hand burned them, and if they are willing to trust that hand again. If they are, then that could speak more about the gullibility of the bowler, let alone Bowlero.

BL.

JessN16

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Re: PBA/Bowlero Announcement
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2022, 08:12:20 PM »

Point being, this is all a question of time, money and to a lesser extent volunteerism, and the world is different now than it was in the USBC's (ABC's) heyday. In regards to Bowlero, the optimist's position here is that Bowlero has finally realized that today's league business leads to a lot of tomorrow business, and they're going to spend the money necessary to court it. The other issue is that the USBC has bad leadership at the moment, IMO. Like ... really, really bad.

The bold is a big thing, but the questions are:

1. Has the damage already been done? I mean, With Shannon saying what he's said, and and the actions Bowlero has put behind it, has the damage Bowlero has done to the relationship between that company and the league bowler over the past 8 years been too much to overcome?

2. Are the league bowlers' memories too short to remember what Bowlero has done to want to risk trusting them again? and

3. Has the ball ban fiasco (Spectre/infamous 6 from SPS/Purple Hammer) still fresh on the league bowlers' minds to push them away from the USBC and over to this certification program despite the damage Bowlero has done to leagues and the league bowler?

Only time can really tell on those, especially as this little tit-for-tat is going to go on for a while.

BL.



Shannon said that in what, 2012? I'd like to think someone could change their tune in 10 years, but even if he hasn't changed it personally, if he has to change it for Bowlero to make money (and him to retain his position) then he'll change it out of convenience.

I think a lot of people take a look at what the USBC's mission statement is and try to apply similar logic to Bowlero. USBC can afford to be stoic in its mission (to a fault, for that matter) because that's in line with what nonprofits typically do. For-profit corporations are a lot more nimble as a rule, as they are serving a different endgame (profit vs. true "mission").

The big thing in this discussion is that the USBC was/is doomed. It has no leverage with centers anymore, and it lacks both the physical and monetary assets to grow league bowler membership by itself. It must do so in concert with BPAA and Bowlero centers -- and that's assuming the USBC would change its mission statement to prioritize recruiting new bowlers, which it has never shown any interest in doing. If Bowlero kills the USBC, it will be a case of hastening the inevitable. The USBC's core business going forward is going to be much leaner -- coaching/training, and running Nationals, the latter of which is the one thing Bowlero can't reproduce like-for-like because of its longevity and history. As the prime director of how the sport is going to be played in private centers, those days were going to be over in the next 10-20 years anyway. Now it's probably the next 5-10.

bradl

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Re: PBA/Bowlero Announcement
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2022, 02:08:05 AM »

Shannon said that in what, 2012? I'd like to think someone could change their tune in 10 years, but even if he hasn't changed it personally, if he has to change it for Bowlero to make money (and him to retain his position) then he'll change it out of convenience.

He said that in 2014.

And while I get that a person can change their minds about what they said, it's that much harder to undo the damage caused by the actions behind what they said. After his comments, Bowlero all but killed pro shops in their alleys, eliminated leagues, eliminated alleys, and pushed the league bowler out in favor of the recreational use and party crowd, and charging $15 - $30/per half hour in an attempt to lure that crowd, which apparently isn't going as well as they hoped.

I get the changing of their minds to try to get the league bowlers back, but they have a lot to undo that burned the league bowlers to get them to trust them again to not repeat the damage they have done. Like Poison sang Like the knife that cuts you: the wound heals, but the scar remains.

Quote
I think a lot of people take a look at what the USBC's mission statement is and try to apply similar logic to Bowlero. USBC can afford to be stoic in its mission (to a fault, for that matter) because that's in line with what nonprofits typically do. For-profit corporations are a lot more nimble as a rule, as they are serving a different endgame (profit vs. true "mission").

That's roughly the same with any corporation versus non-profit, along with who those entities are beholden to: For example, banks are beholden to the shareholders of that bank, while credit unions are beholden to the members of that credit union. Similar applies here: Bowlero is primarily beholden to the shareholders of the company, where the USBC is beholden to the members of the USBC.

Quote
The big thing in this discussion is that the USBC was/is doomed. It has no leverage with centers anymore, and it lacks both the physical and monetary assets to grow league bowler membership by itself. It must do so in concert with BPAA and Bowlero centers -- and that's assuming the USBC would change its mission statement to prioritize recruiting new bowlers, which it has never shown any interest in doing. If Bowlero kills the USBC, it will be a case of hastening the inevitable. The USBC's core business going forward is going to be much leaner -- coaching/training, and running Nationals, the latter of which is the one thing Bowlero can't reproduce like-for-like because of its longevity and history. As the prime director of how the sport is going to be played in private centers, those days were going to be over in the next 10-20 years anyway. Now it's probably the next 5-10.

While not defending the USBC, it didn't help that one company bought out most of the chains of alleys in the country. That does put a strain on the supply of alleys in the country, and could effective bring in talk of monopoly. But that is for another conversation altogether.

Again, I don't think that Bowlero's certification program will kill off the USBC, as a lot more than just leagues depend on the USBC. I mean, Team USA, Jr. Team USA, Collegiates, participation in PABCON, World Cup, and other international tournaments all depend on the USBC, in addition to stateside tournaments. The USBC is the governing body on those, and because of that, the USBC isn't going anywhere. At the most, Bowlero's offering will only be as an alternative to what the USBC already offers, stateside.  That's why I keep saying that people need to hold fire with talk of this killing off the USBC.

BL.