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Author Topic: Perhaps it isn't either the balls OR the lanes ...  (Read 3519 times)

Mighty Fish

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Perhaps it isn't either the balls OR the lanes ...
« on: January 24, 2012, 02:12:06 AM »
In the midst of the modern-day scoring explosion, are there perhaps OTHER reasons that those connected with equipment or lane conditions?

 



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spmcgivern

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Re: Perhaps it isn't either the balls OR the lanes ...
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2012, 10:22:39 AM »
He forgot global warming.


I am not a pro-bowler, but I do play one on BallReviews.com
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Impending Doom

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Re: Perhaps it isn't either the balls OR the lanes ...
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2012, 10:35:32 AM »
 Its lack of integrity on everyone's part. Usbc won't regulate house shots anymore, most houses won't put out fair shots, bowlers will house hop until they find a place they can score at, equipment regulations are too lax, etc. The bowling industry as a whole has made itself a joke, and it makes me sick.

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DukeHarding

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Re: Perhaps it isn't either the balls OR the lanes ...
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2012, 11:32:43 AM »
He forgot the most important factor.....
 


Duke Harding

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Track_Fanatic

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Re: Perhaps it isn't either the balls OR the lanes ...
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2012, 12:42:27 PM »
Tell us how you really feel.  Lol.  Joking aside, I agree with this statement completely.



 
Impending Doom wrote on 1/24/2012 11:35 AM: Its lack of integrity on everyone's part. Usbc won't regulate house shots anymore, most houses won't put out fair shots, bowlers will house hop until they find a place they can score at, equipment regulations are too lax, etc. The bowling industry as a whole has made itself a joke, and it makes me sick.

*Inventor of the FIBJAM*

 
The sky is falling
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Steven

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Re: Perhaps it isn't either the balls OR the lanes ...
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2012, 01:04:56 PM »
Another one of those "so what?" topics.....

 

Yeah, lane conditions and equipment provide the potential for higher scoring, but, so what? The vast majority of league bowlers still average well under 200. The 'explosion' simply hasn't empowered the masses.

 

For the more serious bowler, the average 'bar' has been raised from 190-200 to 220-230, but again, so what? Skill still differentiates over the long haul, even at a higher scoring pace. If you can't repeat good shots and consistently make your spares, you're toast, even on 'easier' condidtions.

 

The decline of bowling is all about social change and leasure time choices that couldn't have been imagined 40-50 years ago. That's all there really is to it.


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Mighty Fish

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Re: Perhaps it isn't either the balls OR the lanes ...
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2012, 02:36:49 PM »
Dear Steven:

 

In one 10-season stretch, I carried a higher average than every member ever elected to the local Hall of Fame for six of those seasons, and I carried high average in my local association on a number of occasions, yet my high lifetime average was 199.

 

That was when there were more than 7,000 members in the association. But now, with only about 2,300 association members (including women, which wasn't the case back then), a 199 average wouldn't likely place me in the top 300 in my local association.

 

In fact, when I moved to this area (Sarasota, Fla.) in 1966, there wasn't a single 300 rolled in my area for the first seven seasons I was here, and it was 13 years before anyone rolled the first 800 in the history of the association. Now, we have two guys in one league averaging better than 240 and multiple 300s and 800s virtually every week.

 

Is there any doubt that scoring is totally out of control?


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Steven

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Re: Perhaps it isn't either the balls OR the lanes ...
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2012, 02:56:20 PM »
You're not addressing the aspect that it's all relative. I'm guessing your personal experience was during the era of Urethane and wood lanes. A 199 was a very nice average back then. Today, you'd probably be 230+ on the typical THS. You'd be still be king of the hill, but simply at a higher scoring pace. Skill is still a consistent differentiating factor.

 

As far as the 300/800 club, there are certainly many more members. But I'd venture to guess 90%+ of all bowlers will never gain entry to the club. Never. A large percentage of members here in BR fall into that category.

 

Given that only a very small percent of all bowlers average over 220 even on cake shots, I don't agree that scoring is out of control. On the contrary, it's the perception is out of control. I have no problem getting into scratch side pots and brackets every week and feel that if I execute, I have a good chance at making money.

 

In your next post, please address the relative aspect of scores.


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Mighty Fish

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Re: Perhaps it isn't either the balls OR the lanes ...
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2012, 03:27:08 PM »
Dear Steven:

 

What do you mean by "the relative aspect of scores"? I'll be pleased to reply after you clarify what you mean.

 

As for personally remaining "king of the hill" after THS took over, you obviously don't know me (or my game). I know I'm an exception among higher-average players, but my personal average didn't go up a bit, no matter how easy the lanes became or what equipment I used.

 

The year before THS came to my area, I carried the high association average of 197, and the next year (with the advent of The Wall), I again carried a high of 197, but I probably didn't rank in the top 50 locally. Two guys on one team averaged over 220 in a center where two years earlier, I was high average in the house at 192.

 

So THS didn't help me a bit. I didn't need any more accuracy (with the help of the lanes) because I was accurate already, and my style of "instinct bowling" didn't help me at all on THS.


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Dan Belcher

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Re: Perhaps it isn't either the balls OR the lanes ...
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2012, 03:33:45 PM »
You're comparing your scores against other bowlers on the same conditions, NOT against other eras with different scoring paces. The bowlers who are winning tournaments and so forth are the talented shot makers just like they used to be. The OVERALL scoring pace is simply higher. So it takes a 230 average to win the tournament instead of 205. But you can't just slop your way into that 230 average by being a bad bowler. So you can't DIRECTLY compare scores between different eras. Much the same, you can't compare a 1967 Lotus F1 car to a modern F1 car. Jim Clark was a great driver even if his car drove much differently and was much slower than today's cars. But everyone he raced against had equally slow and difficult to drive equipment. The modern F1 car is much quicker but easier to drive, but the whole field has the same advantage. You have to compare the drivers' achievements on some basis other than outright laptimes. In bowling, you have to compare results by things other than outright scores. It's all relative to what everyone around you is doing.
 



Mighty Fish wrote on 1/28/2012 4:27 PM:
What do you mean by "the relative aspect of scores"? I'll be pleased to reply after you clarify what you mean.


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Steven

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Re: Perhaps it isn't either the balls OR the lanes ...
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2012, 04:03:23 PM »
You're right. I don't know you or your game. The fact that you weren't able to adjust to technology changes suggests you had technique weaknesses you're not owning up to.

So let's remove "you" from the equation. Your personal experience is making it difficult for you to see what's true, in general.

Looking at what's true for most, technology has not changed the bowling pecking order. If you were in the top tier of bowlers before scores took off, then in most cases you're in the top tier after. Technology doesn't replace or compensate for pure skill and shotmaking. Spare making is the same regardless of what era you bowled in. So basically, nothing much has changed except that the scoring pace is higher. This is what I mean by relative.

There simply aren't as many 220 plus bowlers as you'd like to suggest. I don't know what bone you have to pick with modern bowling, but it's not the reason for the decline in participation. The answers are rooted in societal changes that are much more complex.



 
Mighty Fish wrote on 1/28/2012 4:27 PM:
Dear Steven:

 

What do you mean by "the relative aspect of scores"? I'll be pleased to reply after you clarify what you mean.

 

As for personally remaining "king of the hill" after THS took over, you obviously don't know me (or my game). I know I'm an exception among higher-average players, but my personal average didn't go up a bit, no matter how easy the lanes became or what equipment I used.

 

The year before THS came to my area, I carried the high association average of 197, and the next year (with the advent of The Wall), I again carried a high of 197, but I probably didn't rank in the top 50 locally. Two guys on one team averaged over 220 in a center where two years earlier, I was high average in the house at 192.

 

So THS didn't help me a bit. I didn't need any more accuracy (with the help of the lanes) because I was accurate already, and my style of "instinct bowling" didn't help me at all on THS.




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Mighty Fish

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Re: Perhaps it isn't either the balls OR the lanes ...
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2012, 05:21:17 PM »
Dear Steven:

 

I always had a "technique weakness" in that I never rolled a very strong ball, but I was deadly accurate with a rather weak ball -- at least, weak in comparison to most higher-level players.

 

My accuracy was never a problem, and my spare-shooting ability was exceptional. I have gone entire league seasons without missing even one single-pin spare, and while bowling in the ABC nationals, I didn't miss my first single-pin spare until the sixth tournament, and I didn't miss the second one until tournament No. 11.

 

But the fact of the matter -- obviously unlike most other good bowlers -- is that each time I attempted to upgrade my equipment, I definitely rolled a few more strikes but I also had a few extra high hits and I often "paid the price" when I didn't make a totally accurate shot (and my carry was never exceptional, to begin with).

 

So as you imply, I'm an exception, but I dropped big-time in the "pecking order." And as ou say, spare-making is the same regardless of the era. But all of a sudden, my game (that included A LOT of single-pin spares) no longer kept me at or near the top of the area scoring ladder.

 

Contrary to what you may believe, I don't really have "a bone to pick" with modern-day bowling. And I don't blame anyone but myself for being unable to remain at the top of the local ladder. But regardless of how anyone looks at the situation, the modern-day scoring explosion certainly hasn't done anything to help league participation (or scratch/competitive bowling).

 

Thanks for your comments.



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Sunshine n Lollipops

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Re: Perhaps it isn't either the balls OR the lanes ...
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2012, 06:27:49 PM »
Absolutely correct, Steven.  So what indeed.  This lack of integrity b.s. is just that, b.s.   House shots are soooo easy yet majority of guys bowling average 175.  Me and my friends won't even bowl on house shots anymore.  Guys that are legends in the area averaging 230 in house leagues come to our league and average 200 and our happy because they know they are bowling on a shot that requires skill.

 

This has been addressed so many times.  Let the once-a-weekers, the mixed league bowlers have their fun on a THS.  Who cares?  I'll bet 80% of those bitching about too easy shots are throwing the latest biggest hook ball on that China.  Aren't you?   
 


e
Steven wrote on 1/24/2012 2:04 PM:
Another one of those "so what?" topics.....


 


Yeah, lane conditions and equipment provide the potential for higher scoring, but, so what? The vast majority of league bowlers still average well under 200. The 'explosion' simply hasn't empowered the masses.


 


For the more serious bowler, the average 'bar' has been raised from 190-200 to 220-230, but again, so what? Skill still differentiates over the long haul, even at a higher scoring pace. If you can't repeat good shots and consistently make your spares, you're toast, even on 'easier' condidtions.


 


The decline of bowling is all about social change and leasure time choices that couldn't have been imagined 40-50 years ago. That's all there really is to it.





 Don't believe in the Uzi, it just went off in my hand.  I, I believe in love.  
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JessN16

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Re: Perhaps it isn't either the balls OR the lanes ...
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2012, 08:58:43 PM »

 
Dan Belcher wrote on 1/28/2012 4:33 PM:
You're comparing your scores against other bowlers on the same conditions, NOT against other eras with different scoring paces. The bowlers who are winning tournaments and so forth are the talented shot makers just like they used to be. The OVERALL scoring pace is simply higher. So it takes a 230 average to win the tournament instead of 205. But you can't just slop your way into that 230 average by being a bad bowler. So you can't DIRECTLY compare scores between different eras. Much the same, you can't compare a 1967 Lotus F1 car to a modern F1 car. Jim Clark was a great driver even if his car drove much differently and was much slower than today's cars. But everyone he raced against had equally slow and difficult to drive equipment. The modern F1 car is much quicker but easier to drive, but the whole field has the same advantage. You have to compare the drivers' achievements on some basis other than outright laptimes. In bowling, you have to compare results by things other than outright scores. It's all relative to what everyone around you is doing.
 



Mighty Fish wrote on 1/28/2012 4:27 PM:
What do you mean by "the relative aspect of scores"? I'll be pleased to reply after you clarify what you mean.


I hope your post doesn't get lost in this thread because you hit the nail on the head here. This is why the issue has nothing to do with the concept of "integrity." If higher scores = loss of integrity, then if you go auto racing in anything newer than a Ford Model T, you are displaying a similar "lack of integrity."
 
Integrity is only lost when people outright cheat -- altering ball surface during competition, sinking lead into the core somewhere to create a huge imbalance, etc. It's more of an integrity issue to put E-Z-Slide on your shoe than it is to roll a high score on a soft (but legal) shot.
 
Jess

 
Edited by JessN16 on 1/28/2012 at 10:01 PM
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Sunshine n Lollipops

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Re: Perhaps it isn't either the balls OR the lanes ...
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2012, 11:35:42 AM »
+1000 to Dan and Jess.  Money.
 



JessN16 wrote on 1/28/2012 9:58 PM:

 



Dan Belcher wrote on 1/28/2012 4:33 PM:
You're comparing your scores against other bowlers on the same conditions, NOT against other eras with different scoring paces. The bowlers who are winning tournaments and so forth are the talented shot makers just like they used to be. The OVERALL scoring pace is simply higher. So it takes a 230 average to win the tournament instead of 205. But you can't just slop your way into that 230 average by being a bad bowler. So you can't DIRECTLY compare scores between different eras. Much the same, you can't compare a 1967 Lotus F1 car to a modern F1 car. Jim Clark was a great driver even if his car drove much differently and was much slower than today's cars. But everyone he raced against had equally slow and difficult to drive equipment. The modern F1 car is much quicker but easier to drive, but the whole field has the same advantage. You have to compare the drivers' achievements on some basis other than outright laptimes. In bowling, you have to compare results by things other than outright scores. It's all relative to what everyone around you is doing.
 






Mighty Fish wrote on 1/28/2012 4:27 PM:

What do you mean by "the relative aspect of scores"? I'll be pleased to reply after you clarify what you mean.



I hope your post doesn't get lost in this thread because you hit the nail on the head here. This is why the issue has nothing to do with the concept of "integrity." If higher scores = loss of integrity, then if you go auto racing in anything newer than a Ford Model T, you are displaying a similar "lack of integrity."

 

Integrity is only lost when people outright cheat -- altering ball surface during competition, sinking lead into the core somewhere to create a huge imbalance, etc. It's more of an integrity issue to put E-Z-Slide on your shoe than it is to roll a high score on a soft (but legal) shot.

 

Jess


 

Edited by JessN16 on 1/28/2012 at 10:01 PM



 Don't believe in the Uzi, it just went off in my hand.  I, I believe in love.  
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