BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: squirrelywrath1 on June 08, 2014, 08:23:16 PM
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Unbelievable just how many of you failed to read EVERYTHING about the rule changes. Even if a no-thumb bowler has no extra weight hole but just a "traditional" thumb hole in his/her bowling ball - that ball will most likely be deemed illegal anyway. That old thumbhole is now being considered a weighthole, therefore the new grip center will be in the middle of the bridge rather than the middle of the grip span.
This has negatively affected me even though I have no "weight-holes" in any of my bowling balls. I prefer simple layouts with the c.g. at or near the grip center.
I've already spent $20.00 to make 2 pieces of my arsenal legal under the new rules. This was done by drilling the existing thumbhole even deeper to remove excess weight. (I'm guessing it would be considered excess thumb-weight based on the new grip center) The other ball I can't make legal without a full plug & redrill because the c.g. was shifted down a bit so we could put the pin in the ring finger. My driller already tried to re-work it but came up short by about 1/4 ounce. Can't go any deeper in the thumbhole on that one.
(Really, what's a 1/4 ounce going to do on a 15 pound ball anyway?)
Absolutely ridiculous that if I use my thumb for gripping in a particular ball, it is legal. But if I remove my thumb and rest my palm over my thumbhole to roll it, the SAME ball is now considered illegal under the new rule.
USBC, if you think for one moment that I'm going to needlessly spend more money to comply with your ridiculous rule, you are all f*cking crazy. I'll just go find an unsanctioned league to bowl in, so you folks can just kiss my country-tis-of-thee. Have a nice day.
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You are very riled up over $20, good grief.
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OH MY GOD 20$$$$ RAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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You guys crack me up. The money isn't the real issue here. It is with little doubt the USBC thinks that two-handers and no-thumbers are a huge problem.
If you were in my shoes, would you spend money to fix something that was never broken to begin with? Think about it.
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You guys crack me up. The money isn't the real issue here. It is with little doubt the USBC thinks that two-handers and no-thumbers are a huge problem.
If you were in my shoes, would you spend money to fix something that was never broken to begin with? Think about it.
As dumb as the rules are, id either abide by them or quit bowling. If you want to "stick it" to the USBC, talk with your wallet.
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20$ dollars dohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
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U get extra revs! Quitchyer belly achin'!
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If you don't use the thumb hole drill it wider to take the weight out.
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If you don't use the thumb hole drill it wider to take the weight out.
Sorry, I should have clarified - I DO use the thumbhole on this particular ball if the lanes aren't allowing me to get in and open them up. So, I'm kinda stuck on this one.
And Ken, yes I've already spent $20 on fixing things up. But lets not forget the extra $45 if I have to plug & redrill the other one. A total of $65 may be chump change for you, but it's not for me. Not to mention the 1 hour round trip to my ball driller which is bit of a hassle.
One of my buddies is another no-thumb bowler and he told me that he was ALREADY called on on this very rule bowling in a local tournament. Someone there just couldn't wait to get on his case about it, but forgot the rule doesn't apply until August 1st.
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If your complaining about prices then bowling is for sure not for you. Basketball would be great don't have to buy equipment. But if the argument is about bowling costing too much money then its not for you bud or take the option you wanted to choose don't bowl leagues.
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I agree with the post that the rule sucks. I also posted that after weighting a few bowling balls I have without thumb holes to see what the static weights are I found them to comply.
A few things that are interesting. Thumbholes are now considered weight holes for no thumb bowlers. Thumb holes can be almost as large as needed while weight holes can not be larger then 1 1/8" with bevel.
So yes for a lot of no thumb bowlers there will be some much added expenses in getting equipment up to date or replacing it.
My question to all of the many many many bowlers we may have on this site is this.
How many no thumb bowlers have you seen using thumb holes as extra weight holes along with a weight hole when having bowling balls drilled? According to USBC and the need for this rule is extremely wide spread and a huge issue. I've not seen it locally by any means.
(I know of two one handed no thumb bowlers and one two handed and it is not been seen by them)
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I agree with the TC and Kidlost.
It's the fact that it seems a little unfair that only no-thumb bowlers have to "fix" their arsenals because of a "glitch". Luckily for me, I learned how to use my thumb while bowling two handed. On the other hand, I can relate to the pain of not being able to afford the necessary changes. This rule is actually uite petty. Either way, is it really that big of an issue? I feel it should have been banned to utilize the unfair tricks that this rule is supposed to hinder. Both ways require someone to check. Therefore, I cannot see why they would make such a ridiculous rule. Does anyone have a legit argument for this? Fofget the expenses and exceptions. Why couldn't they just ban anyone caught utilizing a ball that gives "no thumbers" an advantage?
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I think USBC and everybody else is really missing the point on this. At the point of release which finger leaves the ball first? The thumb. At the point in time, you are throwing the ball without a thumb.
To regulate equipment based on the STYLE a bowler uses is absolutely ridiculous. If the USBC wants to eliminate the 2 handed bowling style, then grow some balls and eliminate it.
USBC has a million dollar throw bot machine (E.A.R.L). How much research did they put into this rule change? By the way, E.A.R.L. uses two hands to throw the ball.
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I think USBC and everybody else is really missing the point on this. At the point of release which finger leaves the ball first? The thumb. At the point in time, you are throwing the ball without a thumb
But not putting your thumb in the ball when the approach begins allows you to get your wrist in a much stronger position, it is not just at the release.
What I don't understand is that this rule makes weightholes and grip center equal for ALL players and people are whining about it. One could say with the ability to use or not use a thumb hole, thus adding a weighthole on certain shots is a unfair advantage to guys who have a standard grip. USBC is not perfect I will grant you but you guys choose to bowl in an unorthodox manner you are in the vast minority and you are pitching a fit about having your rules changed as if your being handicapped. Your not being handicapped the rules have been changed to level the playing feild.
I never had a issue with guys bowling no thumb before the rule changed just to clarify. Just stating things how I see it.
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It's only "unorthodox" because the "norm" was more successful. Any time things change, this happens. People fight the change.
I'm not a two-handed bowler. I use my thumb on every shot. Always have. I don't think I could keep a ball out of the gutter without the thumb. Just because people found another way to do something within the laws of the system, you shouldn't change the system because a few people found a way to perform better than the establishment.
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Joe Cool .. I see it through your eyes!
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Agree with Dog town. Definition of center of grip should be center of the palm whether thumb hole is used or not. Whether thumb less or not, the ball is carried in roughly the same part of the palm during the approach and the beginning of the release. Whether you use holes to grip or just palm the ball, you are gripping the ball with your thumb and fingers. Suppose a guy opts to use a ball with no holes. Does that mean he has no center of grip? Obviously not. The center of grip is where he places the ball in relation to the center of his palm. The issue isn't the cost, but the can of worms this new rule is going to open in terms of interpretation for multiple scenarios.
Basically static weight rules have outlive their usefulness anyway, but that is another issue.
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I think it is stupid and it doesn't affect me in the least.
Still USBC changes this rule because it says there is a large number of bowlers who are taking advantage of it when having bowling balls drilled.
My question is simply this....where are all of these bowlers USBC is referring to????????
It is bogus.
USBC also can't ask how this differs from bowlers with four finger holes and not being required to use all four holes on every release. They can pick and choose when they use any of these holes.
USBC for some reason doesn't see that as a contradiction.
Actually they avoid it completly every time they are questioned on it.
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kidlost2000 is right. I throw with one hand. I can drill a ball with 4 finger holes, a thumb hole and a balance hole. I only have to demonstrate that I "can" use all the finger holes. I don't have to use ANY of them and my ball is still legal as long as it meets USBC static requirements.
USBC could have adopted the same rule for the thumb hole. But that was not their goal.
It DOES NOT make sense that one ball is legal for one and illegal for another because of the style.
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The other issue, is that many one handed bowlers ASSUME that all two handed bowlers get more revs and more speed. Those two attributes alone do not equal more strikes or carry. Not all two handed bowlers can throw it like Belmo. Actually, very few can.
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Answering kid lost 2000 question somewhat, I haven't seen a two finger bowler drilled yet at my local house nor do I care what his balled is drilled like but my friend who I sold my Brunswick aura to ,had my specs which had 2 fingers holes and a thumb holeand a weight hole. He was throwing the aura 2 fingers about from the 45 board to 19 at the arrows breaking at 6 to 9 board. I know the aura is a strong ball because I was throwing it 3 fingers from 50 board to 25 breaking at 6 to 9 board and all but he decided to plug the thumb hole instead of the lil weight hole and the reaction of the ball change completely. He has to throw from about 20 board to 10 at the arrows with the aura. So overall excuse my bad engrish I think these so call extra weight holes do enhance the ball but do I care about the power hell nah imma still do me. Sorry but the grammar blah blah blah my phone swiping skills on point. Oh and yes fresh oil of course I run the lane machine hueheuehue
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The reaction change because he plugged the largest hole affecting the bowling ball.
Had he left the thumb hole and plugged the small weight hole he may not have seen any difference.
Also keep in mind it isn't the thumb in or out that generates all of the revolutions for the bowler. It is how the bowler is releasing the ball. As mentioned and demonstrated there are many two handed bowlers that use a thumb hole and generate the same number of revs. There are also many with no thumbs that many conventional bowlers can out hook.
USBC is made a rule to try and correct a problem no one has seen exist out side of what USBC is speculating.
They speculate that a large number of no thumb bowlers are using this to manipulate the ball that others cant with drilling. Has any one seen this first hand? It is wide spread like the boogeyman but no one has actually seen it.
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Yea I see what u r saying but yea not in my house 2 finger people aaren't as ccompetitive as 3 finger bowlers so they wouldn't about drilling layouts cuz most 2 finger bowlers just bowl and don't give a bleep haha. They just buy a Ball and don't care as long as it hooks.
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While I think the rule is very messy and the whole thing needs to be overhauled ( including traditional style), my guess is that the USBC could simply argue that it may not be a huge problem now, but it could be in the future. If I was them I think that would be my stance anyways.
I mean haven't we had a ton of people over the years complain about how they let Reactive Resin balls slide in and letting it ruin the game? One could argue they are trying to stop a similar problem from occurring.
Don't get me wrong, I think its being done just to massage some ego's, just more or less playing devils advocate with this post.
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The other issue, is that many one handed bowlers ASSUME that all two handed bowlers get more revs and more speed. Those two attributes alone do not equal more strikes or carry. Not all two handed bowlers can throw it like Belmo. Actually, very few can.
well said still have to execute and if you don't you still bowl bad
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I always used the standard layout on every ball I've drilled up over the last 20 years, 2 finger holes and a thumb hole in the ball where it still fits me as if I was to throw with my thumb and some balls even have the extra weight hole. By there new rule, I had to plug any ball that had a weight hole which was 4 of them and either had to open up the thumb hole to the right to take side out of the ball or drill the ring finger deeper. They are fixed and I don't see much of a difference if any on how they roll for me. I found a way around there new rule on drilling up the finger holes and what they want to call my weight hole instead of it being my thumb hole. All my new stuff Now has either 2 finger holes and what I would call a weight hole is now my pinky hole and the hole can be any size you want as long as your pinky can fit in the hole ( did usbc not think that this would be another way around there rule? ) I guess not. Lol. Plus if you have to much side in a ball after you drill the finger holes and thumb or weight hole you can't drill another hole to get the ball legal. Oh yes you can. :) 1 of my new balls had the cg 2.5" right of my span line and with the pinky hole and a double hole inside my thumb hole the ball came out perfect and it rolls better then some of my balls that had a weight hole in them drilled the same way lol. Ball is still legal by usbcs new rule and like all my other balls other then the pinky hole, the ball still fit my hand as if I was to throw it with my thumb in the ball. Ball has 3 finger holes and a weight hole instead of a thumb hole and on the scale it's under 3/4 top and 3/4 side. I have 62 perfect games with out my thumb zero with and 18 800 sets with out zero with. I didn't have to change the way I throw the ball or my game at all, I just had to manipulate how I can drill up equipment now. Usbc should of just made the new rule that your CG would have to be with in 1" of your grip Center line with no weight holes allowed. That would of fixed it for every bowler out there but that would be to easy of a fix... thanks usbc for making me think out side the box :)
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If you don't use the thumb hole drill it wider to take the weight out.
Sorry, I should have clarified - I DO use the thumbhole on this particular ball if the lanes aren't allowing me to get in and open them up. So, I'm kinda stuck on this one.
And Ken, yes I've already spent $20 on fixing things up. But lets not forget the extra $45 if I have to plug & redrill the other one. A total of $65 may be chump change for you, but it's not for me. Not to mention the 1 hour round trip to my ball driller which is bit of a hassle.
One of my buddies is another no-thumb bowler and he told me that he was ALREADY called on on this very rule bowling in a local tournament. Someone there just couldn't wait to get on his case about it, but forgot the rule doesn't apply until August 1st.
Put in a switch grip, then remove it for no thumb!
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Its not the $20.00 to fix a ball or two I am upset about. It is the $2,000 worth of equipment I have that now USBC says is illegal that is going to cost an additional $300+ to plug and redrill. It is the $200 ball I just drilled less than 2 months ago that is now considered illegal.
The people who think it is such a great rule are the ones that dont have to fork out more money out of their wallet. Considering that surface dictates ball motion more than anything; the rule pretty much did nothing in terms of ball reaction manipulation as you could just about change the surface to counteract the taking away of a side weight hole. It wont be exact. But it can be close. All this rule did; was shut up the whiners who think two handers/no thumbers have an advantage over someone who does use a thumb.
This is why the rule is ridiculous. The highest rev rate for a very long time was Robert Smith. He could generate over 600rpms. Another high rev guy that used a thumb was Rudy Kasimakis. If rev rate alone gains some sort of any advantage; then explain how is it that they are nowhere near pushing Walter Ray for most titles. In fact; does either even have 10 titles? If no thumbing is such an advantage; how come Mike Miller doesnt have a bunch of titles? How come Osku isnt pushing 10 titles yet?
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Its not the $20.00 to fix a ball or two I am upset about. It is the $2,000 worth of equipment I have that now USBC says is illegal that is going to cost an additional $300+ to plug and redrill. It is the $200 ball I just drilled less than 2 months ago that is now considered illegal.
The people who think it is such a great rule are the ones that dont have to fork out more money out of their wallet. Considering that surface dictates ball motion more than anything; the rule pretty much did nothing in terms of ball reaction manipulation as you could just about change the surface to counteract the taking away of a side weight hole. It wont be exact. But it can be close. All this rule did; was shut up the whiners who think two handers/no thumbers have an advantage over someone who does use a thumb.
This is why the rule is ridiculous. The highest rev rate for a very long time was Robert Smith. He could generate over 600rpms. Another high rev guy that used a thumb was Rudy Kasimakis. If rev rate alone gains some sort of any advantage; then explain how is it that they are nowhere near pushing Walter Ray for most titles. In fact; does either even have 10 titles? If no thumbing is such an advantage; how come Mike Miller doesnt have a bunch of titles? How come Osku isnt pushing 10 titles yet?
Its kind of ironic the general bowling public was force fed Jason Belmonte and his "revolutionary two handed style", now, USBC is trying to "tame" the beast they created with all this two handed stuff. What buffoonery on USBC's part.
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""This is why the rule is ridiculous. The highest rev rate for a very long time was Robert Smith. He could generate over 600rpms. Another high rev guy that used a thumb was Rudy Kasimakis. If rev rate alone gains some sort of any advantage; then explain how is it that they are nowhere near pushing Walter Ray for most titles. In fact; does either even have 10 titles? If no thumbing is such an advantage; how come Mike Miller doesnt have a bunch of titles? How come Osku isnt pushing 10 titles yet?""
Well said there Mr. TwoHand. No-thumbing or two-hand is only an advantage if the bowler is good enough to keep in under control. (Which I am not).
Kinda funny that I first saw bowlers using the technique way back in 1986. I don't recall anyone making a fuss about it then. Only now we have Belmo doing quite well at the highest level - now people seem to want to tame him and others like him down.
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I'm doing this more to play devil's advocate.
The rule has always been you are allowed up to 5 holes for gripping purposes and one hole to get static balance.
When you don't use the thumb, haven't used the thumb, will never use the thumb hole, then that hole is only there for static balance purpose and therefore is a balance hole and counts towards your balance hole total,
Since they don't use the thumb for griping then the griping holes center is between the finger holes.
It is really not so much a change in the rules as a clarification that a hole that COULD be used for a thumb hole but is NOT is deemed a balance hole.
It is unfortunate that it has taken this long to be clarified.
What if I, as a thumb user, discovered a drilling that with 2 balance holes gave me a advantage? I couldn't use it per the rules, why should a no thumb bowler be able to use that drilling?
Personally I don't care but I can understand why they clarified the rule,
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As far as Belmonte, I'm not sure it was the USBC that force fed us, it was the PBA.
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My only point is that the center of grip is the same whether you use your thumb or not. Suppose I drill a ball with no thumb hole because I don't use it. How would I lay it out to make it legal. If I call the center of grip like between the fingers, I am actually getting way more than an oz of finger weight from my true center.
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Say you drill a ball with fingers only and the finger holes are both the same size so the bowler could put his fingers in either way.
Now his palm could face either direction from the fingers. Which grip center would be used for statics? How would you determine what the grip center should be without a thumb hole for reference? If you reversed your grip wouldn't you be changing from finger to thumb weight? From positive side to negative side?
Since a thumb isn't used, the thumb hole, if drilled doesn't have to be the proper span a true grip center could be off 1/2 inch or more even if your hand covers the hole.
I understand what you are saying in that with the span in the fingers they could extra finger/thumb in reference to the grip center but I don't know how you find a consistent point of reference for the grip center otherwise?
Again I'm not bothered by the no thumb bowlers but unlike a lot of bowlers now I still believe that statics make a difference in fine tuning a reaction. It is down the list of factors but it still maters.
The main reason bowlers have come to hate statics is that "proshops" don't bother to balance balls anymore getting them thrown out or don't have the equipment to balance a ball. And it keeps them from putting certain drillings on balls because they can't get the statics right without drilling huge weight holes that gut a ball.
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There are two different measuring points for measuring statics. One between the fingers if you don't use the thumb.
The other measuring point if you use a thumb hole is the center of the grip.
Simple.
Regards,
Luckylefty
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This is what I want to see answered:
You take me and Robert Smith. I have been clocked as having a rev rate as high as 570 (albeit that was about 10 years ago; now I am around 500-525). Robert Smith has been clocked in the low 600s. You give us the same ball laid out with 2 finger holes, a thumb hole, and a side weight hole. He throws the ball with his thumb in it first and then I throw the same exact ball only not use the thumb hole. Are the "experts" really going to try and convince me that the ball knows who is throwing it and can determine which hole is a thumb hole and which hole(s) are the weight holes and somehow role differently based on that??? I mean seriously. How dumb are we to believe that two of the same bowling ball with the same surface prep and layout used by bowlers with the same rev rate are somehow going to roll differently and give one bowler an advantage over another just based on "Well he isnt using his thumb"?
Can someone really give me an intelligent answer other than "Well if you dont use the thumb it is now considered a weight hole and gives you an advantage over someone that uses the thumb for gripping purposes"?
As they say in golf..........."The ball doesnt know who is hitting it."
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Why are finger holes allowed to be drilled and not used, but thumb holes must be used?
Think about that question in reference to this new USBC rule on thumb holes and you see why it is a bad rule.
As long as I can demonstrate that I use the hole I am fine to never use it and can technically have extra weight holes as needed for top weight.
I know a no thumb one handed bowler that uses his strike ball for all of his spares. He puts his thumb in the ball when he shoots spares. How is that different then not using my extra two finger holes until the shot dictates it?
USBC can not answer that question when it is posed in an email you send because no one with any sense can tell you how it is different. Stupid rules for non-existent problem. (They give the same round about answer every time)
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I honestly believe this is step 1 in a 2 step process.
Step 1- "Try" to limit how a two handed bowler can drill a ball"
Step 2- Eliminate two handed bowling.
Guys who throw without a thumb are guilty by association.
If Jason Belmonte was not having commercial success with the two handed style, this would be a non issue.
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This is what I want to see answered:
You take me and Robert Smith................. two of the same bowling ball with the same surface prep and layout used by bowlers with the same rev rate are somehow going to roll differently and give one bowler an advantage over another just based on "Well he isnt using his thumb"?
Your making a comparison where everything is the same, except for thumb use.
So yes that example "The ball doesn't know who is hitting it."
But I believe the new ruling is trying prevent the thumbless bowler, from placing the now unused thumb hole in exotic locations that the thumb using bowler either can't use or can't effectively use even if they can get their thumb in the hole.
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I honestly believe this is step 1 in a 2 step process.
Step 1- "Try" to limit how a two handed bowler can drill a ball"
Step 2- Eliminate two handed bowling.
Guys who throw without a thumb are guilty by association.
If Jason Belmonte was not having commercial success with the two handed style, this would be a non issue.
I agree with you 100%. It is a shame because his emergence has brought on a new popularity that is bringing more youth bowlers into bowling centers. If we are making dumb decisions that are telling youth that they cant do something because "it is not bowling"; then the sport will do nothing but continue to die.
This is why with decisions like this in addition to the fact that honor score awards are now career awards, more leagues should go unsanctioned. Leagues have by-laws anyway.
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Suppose we had a Count Gengler today. Most of you have probably never heard of him because he bowled 90 years ago, but he was a bowling hustler who threw with no holes.
Also people should look back to when the weight rules were adopted in response to bowlers throwing dodo balls. The early ABC felt that experienced "better" bowlers gained too much advantage by having the ability to excessively manipulate balance. In other words they were trying to level the playing field. The fact is that static imbalance, even in the extreme does not give a bowler any advantage in terms of steering the ball to the pocket. All it does is allow more hook with less lift. With todays surfaces and the ability of bowlers to create extreme rev rates excessive imbalance is just as likely to be detrimental as an advantage
Bottom line, we were bowling with two finger balls on shellac when the current balance rules were adopted. They have been obsolete for 40 years