BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: tank38 on March 07, 2016, 10:50:44 AM
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Can bad pin carry be attributed to just bad luck?
I bowled in a tournament this past weekend and actually for much of this year in league bowling my pin carry has been horrible. I'm leaving everything on the back row with a bunch of 4 pins added in. It's been a really frustrating year.
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no
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no
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What he said.
Consistent carry issues, whether good or bad, cannot be attributed to "luck".
The occasional occurence maybe. But not on a regular basis.
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no
+1
I can see once or twice during league, but bad carry over a long period of time is not bad luck.
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"i got robbed!!"
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Only Solid 8's and 7's ( for right handers ) and 7's are often bad racks that are not apparent. There is a reason for 95% of 10 pins. The ability to overcome that reason may not be within your realm of control no matter how well you execute, but it is still not random bad luck
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Watch what other people are doing to carry. More than likely they are coming in at a different angle, hitting heavier or lighter, ball reving and rolling up at the pocket, have more speed so the corners are being taken out by pins off the wall.
Those are some of the things that could be the difference in why you aren't carrying and others are.
And if that doesn't work, always believe they are all going to fall on every shot and they will.
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Can bad pin carry be attributed to just bad luck?
Only if good pin carry can also be attributed to mere luck.
Yes, some shots seem to be executed very well, and yet produce less than a strike. On occasion you can say it was "bad luck", but over a period of time it's likely something else. Looking at the pin deck from the foul line can fool us a little. When you see the actual space between pins it's easily understood why one may not fall on a shot that looked good front to back.
Remember that as long as we are rolling round objects at other round objects frankly, anything goes...
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I've noticed that the bowlers with the best "carry" are the ones that have good forward roll when they get to the pin deck. Those that have more spin tend to leave more solid tens and other pins on good hits. I define good forward roll as the ball seeming to go rolling faster than the forward velocity of the ball. Think of a hot rod with the wheels spinning faster than the forward motion of the car. Also it seems that the faster the ball gets into this forward roll, the better.
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Earl Anthony said for the best carry he wanted his ball reving at its highest RPM when it entered the pocket.
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Thanks for some of the interesting replies.
All I know this year is that it seems like no matter what I try, be it different lines, styles or balls the results still end up the same. Then I watch other guys bowl they are striking a lot no matter were or how they hit the pins.
It's just been a very frustrating year and with the season ending tournaments coming I was just wondering if there is anything I could try to do to make my odds better at pin carry.
Thanks....
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Earl Anthony said for the best carry he wanted his ball reving at its highest RPM when it entered the pocket.
While that sounds good, do you have any idea how difficult it is to have the ball NOT at it's highest RPM when it entered the pocket.
Unless you're throwing the ball 16 mph, with 600+ revs, the friction from the lane is going to increase your rev rate, once the ball reaches the roll phase, there are no forces to cause the rev rate to decline.
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I've noticed that the bowlers with the best "carry" are the ones that have good forward roll when they get to the pin deck. Those that have more spin tend to leave more solid tens and other pins on good hits. I define good forward roll as the ball seeming to go rolling faster than the forward velocity of the ball. Think of a hot rod with the wheels spinning faster than the forward motion of the car. Also it seems that the faster the ball gets into this forward roll, the better.
Most of the problem with carry is people's too broad of a definition of the pocket.
It seems the pocket has been defined by "where I can get away with the most strikes"
If you shoot at the 1-2-4-7, and try to hit the pocket side rather than brooklyn, the goal is to get the ball to that "perfect" sport which hits the 1 into the 2, into the 4, into the 7.
The more you miss that spot, the more likely you are to break the chain reaction.
If you think of that spot as the pocket, and anything that would break the chain reaction as missing the pocket, most of your non strikes can be directly related to missing the pocket.
Once you reach that spot, the next factor is deflection.
Deflection is a function of momentum.
If we were able to quantify the quality of the release, and how complete the ball reached the roll phase, we may be able to compare "apples" and "oranges".
A moderate release 70%, and completed roll phase 100% could equal 70% momentum into the pins.
A stronger release 90%, but only obtaining a 80% roll phase could equal 72% momentum.
Most of the shots that you see rolling forward and hitting the pocket properly, the ball exited the oil pattern right up against the wall of oil.
Which if hits the pocket once, tends to hit the same spot over and over again, until the end of the oil pattern gets damaged from usage.
This is where the notion of "wrong ball" comes from.
With a wall, you can exit the pattern up against the oil all night long with plenty of room for error leading up to the exit point, but the real question is can you get the ball to go from there, to the pocket.
IF you brought enough different balls with you, and know how to read the reaction, you should be able to figure out which ball to switch to.
However, if you didn't bring the right ball for those conditions, it's going to be a long night.
Off by a little bit, and your carry suffers.
Off by a lot, and you're all over the head pin.
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It really all boils down the rotational energy ( or lack thereof ) and deflection. Almost all 10 pins result from too much deflection of the ball into the 3 pin ( for right handers ). Deflection is reduced by the release of rotational energy as the ball is entering the pocket. If a ball has used up its rotational energy too soon, there will be too much deflection on half pocket hits regardless of how much entry angle is achieved. In fact strong entry angle actually causes more weak 10 pins if not accompanied by rotatlonal energy. The reason for this gets further into geometry than is necessary here, but it can be demonstrated easily. Think how often you can carry better by hugging the oil line and preserving energy than by projecting to the dry and burning off energy early to create entry angle.
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It really all boils down the rotational energy ( or lack thereof ) and deflection. Almost all 10 pins result from too much deflection of the ball into the 3 pin ( for right handers ). Deflection is reduced by the release of rotational energy as the ball is entering the pocket. If a ball has used up its rotational energy too soon, there will be too much deflection on half pocket hits regardless of how much entry angle is achieved. In fact strong entry angle actually causes more weak 10 pins if not accompanied by rotatlonal energy. The reason for this gets further into geometry than is necessary here, but it can be demonstrated easily. Think how often you can carry better by hugging the oil line and preserving energy than by projecting to the dry and burning off energy early to create entry angle.
If the ball that hugs the oil line preserves the "energy", then what about the ball that is pulled slightly into the oil, and becomes the "frozen rope" to the pocket.
You would think it would preserve even more "energy", but it deflects significantly.
If you take almost any ball, play from left to right in the heavy oil (never getting close to the oil line), and throw an amazing (600+) amount of revs, the ball has this so called rotational energy, but good luck getting it to not deflect.
What you need is momentum.
In this video, the ball has a good balance of momentum (right to left, vs. front to back) which you know of as entry angle, but is has very little rotational energy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EVw8c-X1l4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EVw8c-X1l4)
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When I say preserving energy I am talking about today's environment where there is lots of friction and balls are more likely to burn early. The frozen rope scenario was very common in the old rubber and plastic ball era and often resulted in 5-7 split. Difference between releasing energy to early or not at all doesn't change amount of deflection but does change entry angle. This is the point where we can explain why the soft 7-10 has replaced the 5-7 as the most common light pocket split
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IC: On further thought we may be saying the same thing. When I talk about preserving rotational energy I am saying it in the context that such energy will be released, just not too early. Release of rotational energy creates the momentum you are referring to.
In todays environment of high friction balls it is very uncommon to see the frozen rope that never comes out of a skid like we use to see in the old days. I was assuming that on almost any condition we encounter today, the energy will be released causing change of direction.
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When I say preserving energy I am talking about today's environment where there is lots of friction and balls are more likely to burn early. The frozen rope scenario was very common in the old rubber and plastic ball era and often resulted in 5-7 split. Difference between releasing energy to early or not at all doesn't change amount of deflection but does change entry angle. This is the point where we can explain why the soft 7-10 has replaced the 5-7 as the most common light pocket split
The ball doesn't release any energy, it converts the energy into another form.
What you usually think of as releasing energy, is the ball increasing it's right to left momentum, or reducing it's left to right momentum.
In the process of the momentum change, there is also a decrease in axis of rotation.
If the energy is released too soon, momentum is still created, but if the ball runs back into the wall of oil, the ball has to fight gravity, and decreasing friction to climb up the wall of oil. If it can't make it up that hill, the ball slides back down (to the right) eliminating any momentum gained.
If you pitch the ball far enough away from the oil, depending on how much "energy" you put in the ball to begin with, the ball will create momentum, but unless you put just the right amount it, you're going to miss the pocket left or right.
The modern ball needs that wall of oil, or a very accurate bowler to hit the pocket well.
The surface of a modern ball can generate a significant amount of momentum, which allows the bowler to get away with more light pocket hits, which widens that person's concept of what is the pocket.
Most of your weak hits now come from bad location in the pocket.
Problem is most people seem to think if your ball hits both the 1 pin, and the 3 pin, that qualifies it as having hit the pocket.
If your carry is bad, throw the ball better, if you have to change balls to make a difference at the pins, you're bowling on too easy of an oil pattern.
It may not seem too easy for you that night, but for one of the other guys... his mistakes (much like your adjustments) aren't making any difference at the pins, so he scores high.
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Maybe I am an idiot, but how does a coverstock generate momentum? I can see perhaps a frictional force in the entire equation of what is being discussed. But momentum is calculated by mass x velocity. And those are both components of the bowling ball, not just the coverstock.
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Maybe I am an idiot, but how does a coverstock generate momentum? I can see perhaps a frictional force in the entire equation of what is being discussed. But momentum is calculated by mass x velocity. And those are both components of the bowling ball, not just the coverstock.
Go drag racing, but take the tires off your car so you're riding on just the rims.
Good luck generating momentum.
Plastic ball is similar to rims, reactive resin is similar to racing slicks.
How much momentum does the ball have (in a right the left direction) when you release to ball in a left to right direction? Some negative amount.
How much momentum do you want the ball to have (in a right to left direction) when you hit the head pin. Some positive amount.
You the bowler have to provide that energy into the ball to create that momentum, cover stock is related to the co efficient of friction, which factors into how efficient that energy is converted to momentum.
When people complain that their ball burned up, they simply didn't put enough into the ball to create what they needed out of the ball.
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Maybe I am an idiot, but how does a coverstock generate momentum? I can see perhaps a frictional force in the entire equation of what is being discussed. But momentum is calculated by mass x velocity. And those are both components of the bowling ball, not just the coverstock.
Go drag racing, but take the tires off your car so you're riding on just the rims.
Good luck generating momentum.
Plastic ball is similar to rims, reactive resin is similar to racing slicks.
How much momentum does the ball have (in a right the left direction) when you release to ball in a left to right direction? Some negative amount.
How much momentum do you want the ball to have (in a right to left direction) when you hit the head pin. Some positive amount.
You the bowler have to provide that energy into the ball to create that momentum, cover stock is related to the co efficient of friction, which factors into how efficient that energy is converted to momentum.
When people complain that their ball burned up, they simply didn't put enough into the ball to create what they needed out of the ball.
I think you have the concept of momentum confused with something else. Momentum of a 15-pound traveling 18 mph at an entry angle of 4° is the exact same as a 15-pound Alpha Crux traveling 18 mph at an entry angle of 4°.
Coverstocks, as with tires, generate frictional forces with the surface they are being used on.
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I think you have the concept of momentum confused with something else. Momentum of a 15-pound traveling 18 mph at an entry angle of 4° is the exact same as a 15-pound Alpha Crux traveling 18 mph at an entry angle of 4°.
Coverstocks, as with tires, generate frictional forces with the surface they are being used on.
You don't release the ball with a 4° entry angle, you have to do something to the ball to create that angle.
What you have to do to a plastic ball is far different than what you have to do to a resin ball to achieve the same results.
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Balls burn up when friction totally overcomes skid. More revs will not slow down the burnout as a ball changes direction. However more speed will. The coefficient of friction between lane surface and balls is much higher than it was with the older balls and softer lane surfaces.
What more revs will do is make a ball change direction with less reduction in ball speed than the same amount of direction change with lower revs.
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I think you have the concept of momentum confused with something else. Momentum of a 15-pound traveling 18 mph at an entry angle of 4° is the exact same as a 15-pound Alpha Crux traveling 18 mph at an entry angle of 4°.
Coverstocks, as with tires, generate frictional forces with the surface they are being used on.
You don't release the ball with a 4° entry angle, you have to do something to the ball to create that angle.
What you have to do to a plastic ball is far different than what you have to do to a resin ball to achieve the same results.
You're right. The angle of entry has no bearing on the momentum of the bowling ball. Thanks for correcting that. Here is my revised statement:
I think you have the concept of momentum confused with something else. Momentum of a 15-pound traveling 18 mph is the exact same as a 15-pound Alpha Crux traveling 18 mph.
Coverstocks, as with tires, generate frictional forces with the surface they are being used on.
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I think you have the concept of momentum confused with something else. Momentum of a 15-pound traveling 18 mph at an entry angle of 4° is the exact same as a 15-pound Alpha Crux traveling 18 mph at an entry angle of 4°.
Coverstocks, as with tires, generate frictional forces with the surface they are being used on.
You don't release the ball with a 4° entry angle, you have to do something to the ball to create that angle.
What you have to do to a plastic ball is far different than what you have to do to a resin ball to achieve the same results.
You're right. The angle of entry has no bearing on the momentum of the bowling ball. Thanks for correcting that. Here is my revised statement:
I think you have the concept of momentum confused with something else. Momentum of a 15-pound traveling 18 mph is the exact same as a 15-pound Alpha Crux traveling 18 mph.
Coverstocks, as with tires, generate frictional forces with the surface they are being used on.
Other than "Yeah, you're right", your response has nothing to do with what I typed.
Nowhere did I say that momentum was independent of angle of entry.
So rather than dispute what I DID say, you misinterpret it, and then claim the misinterpretation is incorrect.
I guess that earns you a point your imaginary debate club.
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What I am trying to say is you are claiming friction as a momentum when it is a force. The momentum of the two balls I had are the same so using momentum as an argument is incorrect.
Momentum is at its maximum when the ball leaves the bowler's hand (maximum velocity and constant mass). As the ball moves down the lane, frictional forces act upon the ball causing the ball to change its direction. Depending on the ball and lane conditions, these frictional forces can be small or large. You can measure the momentum at any particular point on the ball's path, but that value is independent of the forces being acted upon it.
All the forces acting upon the ball (friction, gravity, air, rotational) change the momentum as the ball travels.
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What I am trying to say is you are claiming friction as a momentum when it is a force. The momentum of the two balls I had are the same so using momentum as an argument is incorrect.
Momentum is at its maximum when the ball leaves the bowler's hand (maximum velocity and constant mass). As the ball moves down the lane, frictional forces act upon the ball causing the ball to change its direction. Depending on the ball and lane conditions, these frictional forces can be small or large. You can measure the momentum at any particular point on the ball's path, but that value is independent of the forces being acted upon it.
All the forces acting upon the ball (friction, gravity, air, rotational) change the momentum as the ball travels.
Momentum is a vector, it has two components, much like a rectangle had a width and a length.
The length portion of Momentum alone isn't really significant when it comes to pin carry.
The width portion, the right to left movement, increases as the ball changed direction. That portion of momentum is VERY important when it comes to pin carry.
The ratio of the width to the length tells you the angle of entry.
The measurement of the diagonal of the rectangle is the magnitude of the momentum.
Yes, the magnitude of momentum is at its maximum when the ball is released, but that says nothing about pin carry.
Cover stock effects how much right to left momentum the ball will obtain due to the different coefficient of friction.
Thats a factor in the conversation from revs, and axis of rotation into right to left momentum.
Once the ball has achieved that momentum, then your idea of 15 pound plastic ball at 4* entry angle has the same momentum as 15 pound ball resin ball at 4* entry angle, if they are both traveling at the same magnitude of velocity.
My comment about cover stock was in relation to the creation process of momentum.