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Author Topic: pin down or pin up for long, heavy oil?  (Read 12567 times)

Xcessive_Evil

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pin down or pin up for long, heavy oil?
« on: December 09, 2009, 02:07:52 AM »
Just seeing what people prefer.  I like using pin-down on heavy oil since I typically play a tighter line on these conditions and would much rather have a arcy motion into the pocket and gives me a bit more room for error.

I like using pin-up on broken down conditions or shorter conditions since it allows me to play outside since pin-ups respond later and more aggressive at the breakpoint.

Anyone else the same way?
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themagician

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Re: pin down or pin up for long, heavy oil?
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2009, 10:14:35 AM »
Usually I agree with you but most of the really strong equipment is so strong that for me Pin Down rolls so early even on oil its very hard to get any downlane angle.

I tend to prefer pin up anymore but everyone matches up differently.
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Xcessive_Evil

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Re: pin down or pin up for long, heavy oil?
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2009, 10:26:38 AM »
Very true.  Another reason why I thought to ask was to hopefully clear up some confusion I have about Dual Angle.  What confuses me is that Mo says for the secondary angle, the higher the number, the more backend-the lower the number, more midlane.

However, lower sums for higher volumes and higher sums for lower oil.  Is there something wrong here?  Or am I just not reading it right?
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stopncrank

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Re: pin down or pin up for long, heavy oil?
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2009, 10:33:13 AM »
Im with you for the most part, pin down for me untill it breaks down. But i have to say my pin up Virtual Gravity is slowly changing my mind:http://s826.photobucket.com/albums/zz189/stopncrank/Mobile%20Uploads/?action=view¤t=2009-09-11_131056-1.jpg

This ball is flat out a BEAST, i just cant see myself throwing anything stronger right now. Im already getting crazy angles as it is, but the Mutant Cell is interesting!
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Xcessive_Evil

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Re: pin down or pin up for long, heavy oil?
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2009, 10:40:28 AM »
Good to see that I'm not the only one.  When the lanes break down, That's when all my pin up equipment really shine.
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TBS1

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Re: pin down or pin up for long, heavy oil?
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2009, 10:42:32 AM »
you are part correct.  The Higher the number of the first angle will make the ball go longer (less stable ball roll- core wobble) The lower the angle- the more stable it rolls (spins about itself faster).  The second angle the smaller angle more response, the higher the angle the smoother off friction it will be..

Hope this helps,
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stopncrank

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Re: pin down or pin up for long, heavy oil?
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2009, 10:46:19 AM »
As the balls just keep getting stronger and stronger these days im finding i have to go with longer and or higher pin positions than i did in the past to stay in certain zones where i used to know what would work. Here's a link to my friend Jimmy Martin's video of the Mutant Cell:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5lDckrgYVw

Notice the drill pattern he has on the ball. Jimmy and i grew up bowling together and he and i have similar styles. He is finding that he has to do the same as i and actually shy away from drillings that used to work for him because of the stronger balls.
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icewall

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Re: pin down or pin up for long, heavy oil?
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2009, 10:51:51 AM »
it depends on your tilt, rotation etc etc... another words your unique release.

for me i have 1.5 degrees of tilt (a high track) which causes my equipment to roll strong. while my brother has high tilt and needs a ball to pick up for him on the heavy stuff.

basically when it comes to the dual angle layouts i see it like this.

lower angles equal quicker transition

first angle : how quickly the ball gets from skid to hook
pin : how much friction the core will help generate
last angle: how quickly the ball gets from hook to roll

and of course the first angle only applies to asymmetrical cores. the more tilt you have the lower angle you should use (in general)  *for example: if you have high tilt you want your ball to "face up" and get from skid to hook quickly because high tilt makes the ball naturally go long. (less ball surface is touching the lane!)*

so if you were to use lower angle sums. it is going to make the ball go from skid - hook - and roll FASTER then large angle sums. so you wouldnt want a your ball to transition slowly on heavy oil would you? of course not!

so therefore: people who need their ball to transition quickly will want lower angle sums

such as:

speed dominant players
high tilt

 **watch bowlingball.com''''s videos. john congdon has higher tilt and always has smaller first angles.** then larger still is brian halstroms who tracks a little higher, then tony ruocco who tracks the highest and uses the largest first angles.

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rotogrip rogue cell
lanemasters black pearl
storm t-road pearl
visionary ogre ss, gladiator solid


Edited on 12/9/2009 11:54 AM

Edited on 12/9/2009 11:56 AM

stopncrank

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Re: pin down or pin up for long, heavy oil?
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2009, 10:57:31 AM »
The dual angle system loses me, im so glad i got out of the pro shop business because no matter what system you use its still the same basic thing. I understand that the Dual angle system is a more detailed way of drilling, but do most league bowlers really need that much detail in their drilling? Im in no way bashing the Dual Angle method because i havent cared to take the time to learn it since i dont drill anymore. Pretty soon shop operators are gonna have to have a Mathematics degree to drill bowling balls.
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Xcessive_Evil

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Re: pin down or pin up for long, heavy oil?
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2009, 11:09:37 AM »
Thanks ice, it makes more sense.  My pin-ups usually have drilling angles around 50-70, generally higher than my pin-down equipment.  I have some test balls around I need to mess with a bit.
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Edited on 12/9/2009 12:11 PM

cmurder300

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Re: pin down or pin up for long, heavy oil?
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2009, 11:23:37 AM »
I don't really want to start an argument here or high jack the thread,but the idea of pin up or down IMO is a bunch of hype, the distance from your pap is what really matters,especially using Mo's dual angle techinique,then the drill and breakpoint angles. The closer the pin to your pap,the early it rolls and the farther the pin from your pap the longer it goes, plain and simple!!!
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icewall

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Re: pin down or pin up for long, heavy oil?
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2009, 11:29:19 AM »
glad to help!

I just figured this stuff out about a week ago and put it into my own words and now it really makes sense to me.

and YES just about every system has been the same.

I like the dual angle system, hard to understand at first but much more detailed and custom "fit" if you ask me.

but the truth is most really good drillers know where to place your mass bias and pin to keep you in the zone that you should be in anyway.



quote:
Thanks ice, it makes more sense.  My pin-ups usually have drilling angles around 50-70, generally higher than my pin-down equipment.  I have some test balls around I need to mess with a bit.
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www.youtube.com/track8401

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/


Edited on 12/9/2009 12:11 PM

--------------------
tournament average: 219

tweener
medium revs
medium speed

currently throwing
rotogrip rogue cell
lanemasters black pearl
storm t-road pearl
visionary ogre ss, gladiator solid

icewall

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Re: pin down or pin up for long, heavy oil?
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2009, 11:33:48 AM »
NOT true at all.

lets say for arguments sake you have two identical bowling balls.

bowler has a PAP of 4" straight over

1 ball is drilled with the pin in the center of grip whcih makes it a 4" pin to pap drill
*90 degree second angle*

ball 2 is drilled pin WAY up but still 4" from pap
*20 degree second angle*

yes the 4" pin to pap will determine IN GENERAL the amount of friction the ball will see. but by closing up the angle you not only are moving the pin and changing the final rg, BUT you ARE increasing the differential making the ball flare MORE on the backend of the lane.

quote:
I don't really want to start an argument here or high jack the thread,but the idea of pin up or down IMO is a bunch of hype, the distance from your pap is what really matters,especially using Mo's dual angle techinique,then the drill and breakpoint angles. The closer the pin to your pap,the early it rolls and the farther the pin from your pap the longer it goes, plain and simple!!!
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tournament average: 219

tweener
medium revs
medium speed

currently throwing
rotogrip rogue cell
lanemasters black pearl
storm t-road pearl
visionary ogre ss, gladiator solid

Xcessive_Evil

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Re: pin down or pin up for long, heavy oil?
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2009, 12:31:55 PM »
Definitely no argument here, that's not what this is for.  I believe the drilling angle I have for my pin-up equipment is what caused the confusing.  Nothing dulling a ball can't fix.

Thank you all for your inputs.
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n00dlejester

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Re: pin down or pin up for long, heavy oil?
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2009, 12:46:08 PM »
I will safely say I am more or less the opposite these as you Xcessive.  

On shorter patterns, I use a RICO ball with some surface so I can calm down the backends and have a more controllable look.  If this doesn't work, I use a pin-down ball with a slight shine.  I find higher pins on these patterns create a ton of over/under for my game.

On longer patterns, I use both pin-up or pin-down balls.  But what I look for is angle in the back part of the lane.  I have very little hook compared to most, and for me I need to create entry angle anyway possible, so for me I use pin up with surface or pin under but like, 5" to my PAP.  

Mind you this is all for FRESH patterns.  How/when they break down will determine what I use next.  

On a THS, I use shiney stuff that goes long and finishes strong

One thing I've found lately that I take coverstock into consideration more than "how long will this ball go before hook."  If one ball is just giving me a bad reaction and adjustments left/right aren't working at all, I shell up or shell down.  And this has saved me so many headaches recently.  It's really all about lane surface and coverstock surface for me.
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