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Author Topic: CG doesn't matter but what about x-hole  (Read 2285 times)

chitown

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CG doesn't matter but what about x-hole
« on: April 11, 2007, 01:58:24 AM »
I would like to know if someone can shed some light on this for me.  If you have 2 identicle balls with the same starting static weights ect...  You plce the pin in the same exact location on both balls.  Then you take one ball and put the CG on grip center and add an x-hole.  The 2nd ball has the CG kicked to 25 degrees and an x-hole added.  Would there be a difference in reaction?
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Strapper_Squared

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Re: CG doesn't matter but what about x-hole
« Reply #1 on: April 11, 2007, 09:59:24 AM »
Are the x-holes in the same location?

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shelley

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Re: CG doesn't matter but what about x-hole
« Reply #2 on: April 11, 2007, 10:19:01 AM »
Brunswick's point is that the CG influences the need for a weight hole and the weight hole is what actually affects the ball reaction.  If you had a ball with 3/4oz vs 0oz, neither require a weight hole and so will have the same reaction.  But if you have a ball with 3/4oz and another with 1 1/2oz that you bring back to 3/4oz with a weight hole, they will not have the same reaction, and the difference will depend on where the hole is located.

It isn't that the CG doesn't matter, it's that its influence is only felt through the use and placement of a weight hole.  Without the weight hole, it has no effect.

SH

dizzyfugu

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Re: CG doesn't matter but what about x-hole
« Reply #3 on: April 11, 2007, 10:24:13 AM »
I suppose that you will have basically the same recation - a difference might be marginal and, if ever, hard to detect. This assumes that you will use both x-holes to get the ball (esp. the one with the CG swung out) back to legal static weights. If both have identical static weights, the one with the CG swung out should, if the side weight was max. legal on the PAP's side, a little stronger, since it lacks a little more (relative) weight on the negative side. But, as mentione d before, I do not think that anyone would be able to tell the difference.

If you use an x-hole, it should IMHO only be to get the static weight back to legal, or to fine-tune the ball reaction once the ball is punched up, through the relative shift of static weights.
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Steven

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Re: CG doesn't matter but what about x-hole
« Reply #4 on: April 11, 2007, 11:08:48 AM »
quote:
Brunswick's point is that the CG influences the need for a weight hole and the weight hole is what actually affects the ball reaction.  


Shelly: Excellent summary of what this 'debate' is all about.

As long as X-Holes are required (in some instances), and those X-Holes unquestionably influence reaction, then this whole CGNOMADDAH thing is really a non-topic. CG does matter in a real-world practical sense.

If the USBC ever decided to eliminate side weight tolerance requirements (won't happen), then there might be something to talk about. Otherwise, this is a urinating contest between drillers with too much free time on their hands.
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qstick777

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Re: CG doesn't matter but what about x-hole
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2007, 11:16:34 AM »
quote:
Brunswick's point is that the CG influences the need for a weight hole and the weight hole is what actually affects the ball reaction.  If you had a ball with 3/4oz vs 0oz, neither require a weight hole and so will have the same reaction.  But if you have a ball with 3/4oz and another with 1 1/2oz that you bring back to 3/4oz with a weight hole, they will not have the same reaction, and the difference will depend on where the hole is located.

It isn't that the CG doesn't matter, it's that its influence is only felt through the use and placement of a weight hole.  Without the weight hole, it has no effect.

SH


But I thought that static weights didn't matter?

So, the only reason for an x-hole is to bring it back to legality?  Really, what is it doing other than removing weight from a specific portion of the ball?  If statics don't matter than how is it changing the reaction?

Is it because it is changing the surface of the ball?  4 holes instead of 3, so somehow it changes?

To remove .75 oz, I'd need to drill a 31/32" inch hole 1.25" deep.  Surely this can be accomplished without hitting the core, so lets take that argument out of the equation.

I understand that you can manipulate ball reaction by using an x-hole (thanks to BrunsNick for the video), but what you are doing by moving that x-hole around is changing the static weights on the ball......which everybody keeps arguing doesn't make any difference in the balls reaction!

Oh, I'm so confused!  
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Bowler19

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Re: CG doesn't matter but what about x-hole
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2007, 11:23:36 AM »
The reason Statics don't matter from what I understand of it is that when drilling there is a bias that is created that ends up in the thumb for Symm balls when adding a weight hole to fine tune reaction it moves this bias from the thumb towards the X-hole if both X and Thumb hole where the same size then this bias will be located in the middle between the holes.

this is what I understand of this issue.
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EboHammer4ever

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Re: CG doesn't matter but what about x-hole
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2007, 11:39:42 AM »
CG position only has an affect on symetrical weight block balls.  The 2 layouts you decribed would and should have different reactions based on the CG location relative to the center of your grip.  Putting the CG in your palm is going to make the ball very stable and a smoother reaction.  Putting the CG kicked out is going to make the ball more dynamic down the lane by putting the weightblock into a wobble (for lack of a better term) which is going to make it store energy and those travel further down the lane with a more skip/snap reaction then the other drilling.  All the weighthole does is bring it back to legal stats.  So CG location on symetrical balls has an effect on ball reaction, it does not play a part in the reaction on Asymetrical balls because the placement of the Marked Mass Bias does that part.  The CG location will help you determine how much weight you need to take out.  Static weights don't play a part in the reaction anymore due to the shap of cores.  I personally, still shot to have certain finger/thumb/side weight in my equipment just out of habit and for my own knowledge.

Weightholes do in fact influence flare in balls.  Any drilling instructions now tell you the weightholes placed here with increase flare, etc, etc.  I was taught that weightholes on your axis point decrease flare and mellow the reaction out which is true and weightholes placed inside your axis point increases flare which is true because if I want to achieve this look, I will place the weighthole accordingly.

But for the majority of the time now, weightholes are used to make the balls legal.  

Happy Drilling!!

qstick777

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Re: CG doesn't matter but what about x-hole
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2007, 11:55:47 AM »
quote:
CG position only has an affect on symetrical weight block balls.  The 2 layouts you decribed would and should have different reactions based on the CG location relative to the center of your grip.  Putting the CG in your palm is going to make the ball very stable and a smoother reaction.  Putting the CG kicked out is going to make the ball more dynamic down the lane by putting the weightblock into a wobble (for lack of a better term) which is going to make it store energy and those travel further down the lane with a more skip/snap reaction then the other drilling.  All the weighthole does is bring it back to legal stats.  So CG location on symetrical balls has an effect on ball reaction, it does not play a part in the reaction on Asymetrical balls because the placement of the Marked Mass Bias does that part.  The CG location will help you determine how much weight you need to take out.  Static weights don't play a part in the reaction anymore due to the shap of cores.  I personally, still shot to have certain finger/thumb/side weight in my equipment just out of habit and for my own knowledge.

Weightholes do in fact influence flare in balls.  Any drilling instructions now tell you the weightholes placed here with increase flare, etc, etc.  I was taught that weightholes on your axis point decrease flare and mellow the reaction out which is true and weightholes placed inside your axis point increases flare which is true because if I want to achieve this look, I will place the weighthole accordingly.

But for the majority of the time now, weightholes are used to make the balls legal.  

Happy Drilling!!



I understand this, but my question is this:

Why does a weight hole (x-hole) affect the reaction?  What is the x-hole doing?  It's removing weight!  

So, if you put the x-hole on the side of the ball with your PAP, you are removing positive weight.

If you put in the lower thumb quadrant, then you are removing thumb weight.  Same with the finger quadrant.

The weight hole, by definition, is removing weight!  If the weight hole is altering the static weights - ending weights as I saw somebody else call it and it's probably more accurate - how can it not matter?
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Sir Bowl-A-Lot

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Re: CG doesn't matter but what about x-hole
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2007, 11:58:25 AM »
If you look at a Legends/Lane Masters drilling sheet that is included with any of their balls, they state that the position of the CG influences ball reaction.  Not as much as pin position, but it is used to fine tune the reaction.

laufaye

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Re: CG doesn't matter but what about x-hole
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2007, 12:02:32 PM »
quote:
The reason Statics don't matter from what I understand of it is that when drilling there is a bias that is created that ends up in the thumb for Symm balls when adding a weight hole to fine tune reaction it moves this bias from the thumb towards the X-hole if both X and Thumb hole where the same size then this bias will be located in the middle between the holes.

this is what I understand of this issue.
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Bowler19
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Correct, but not on higher mass bias differential ball.
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shelley

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Re: CG doesn't matter but what about x-hole
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2007, 12:06:15 PM »
quote:
I understand this, but my question is this:

Why does a weight hole (x-hole) affect the reaction?  What is the x-hole doing?  It's removing weight!  

So, if you put the x-hole on the side of the ball with your PAP, you are removing positive weight.

If you put in the lower thumb quadrant, then you are removing thumb weight.  Same with the finger quadrant.


Brunswick's argument is that the weight hole changes the shape of the core, even the compound "core+filler" if you don't hit the actual weight block, and that's what changes ball reaction.

SH

laufaye

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Re: CG doesn't matter but what about x-hole
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2007, 12:38:13 PM »
quote:
quote:
I understand this, but my question is this:

Why does a weight hole (x-hole) affect the reaction?  What is the x-hole doing?  It's removing weight!  

So, if you put the x-hole on the side of the ball with your PAP, you are removing positive weight.

If you put in the lower thumb quadrant, then you are removing thumb weight.  Same with the finger quadrant.


Brunswick's argument is that the weight hole changes the shape of the core, even the compound "core+filler" if you don't hit the actual weight block, and that's what changes ball reaction.

SH


Add to that, the diameter of a ball os 8.5"-8.595", radius if half of that, so lets just say 4.25", the RG of a ball limited in the distance os 2.43"-2.80", meaning that ideally if you want to change the RG numbers of the core, you need to have the X-hole 2"-2.5" deep.

So, yes we are changing the RG value, and removing mass, but the reaction change is by removing mass off the core, not just mass.
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kmanestor22

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Re: CG doesn't matter but what about x-hole
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2007, 01:35:30 PM »
quote:
CG position only has an affect on symetrical weight block balls.  The 2 layouts you decribed would and should have different reactions based on the CG location relative to the center of your grip.  Putting the CG in your palm is going to make the ball very stable and a smoother reaction.  Putting the CG kicked out is going to make the ball more dynamic down the lane by putting the weightblock into a wobble (for lack of a better term) which is going to make it store energy and those travel further down the lane with a more skip/snap reaction then the other drilling.  All the weighthole does is bring it back to legal stats.  So CG location on symetrical balls has an effect on ball reaction, it does not play a part in the reaction on Asymetrical balls because the placement of the Marked Mass Bias does that part.  The CG location will help you determine how much weight you need to take out.  Static weights don't play a part in the reaction anymore due to the shap of cores.  I personally, still shot to have certain finger/thumb/side weight in my equipment just out of habit and for my own knowledge.

Weightholes do in fact influence flare in balls.  Any drilling instructions now tell you the weightholes placed here with increase flare, etc, etc.  I was taught that weightholes on your axis point decrease flare and mellow the reaction out which is true and weightholes placed inside your axis point increases flare which is true because if I want to achieve this look, I will place the weighthole accordingly.

But for the majority of the time now, weightholes are used to make the balls legal.  

Happy Drilling!!


1.  You just said cg domaddah, opening a huge can of worms that I've learned not to mention ever again.

2.  You are not totally correct in assuming and weight hole inside your PAP will enhance flare.  Asymmetrical balls: Weight hole on PAP decreases flare, off PAP whether inside or past increases flare.  Symmetrical balls:  Weight hole inside PAP DECREASES flare, past PAP increases flare.

3.  Location of weight hole with also move where the bowtie meets.

The most important thing the cg position does is indicates where you should put a weighthole.  Whether or not it's position affects motion on a weightholeless ball is an unnecessary debate because if it doesn't matter, but you believe it does, moving over for peace of mind will do no harm.
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Edited on 4/11/2007 1:41 PM

Re-Evolution

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Re: CG doesn't matter but what about x-hole
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2007, 07:18:19 PM »
quote:
Add to that, the diameter of a ball os 8.5"-8.595", radius if half of that, so lets just say 4.25", the RG of a ball limited in the distance os 2.43"-2.80", meaning that ideally if you want to change the RG numbers of the core, you need to have the X-hole 2"-2.5" deep.


Actually that is not totally correct.
This is a simplified example.
Lets say we have a ball that has a RG value of 2.5 that means that half of the balls weight is concentrated in the inner 5" leaving 1.75" outside of that to make up the other half. When you drill into the ball you are lowering the RG of the ball for the first 1.75". The outer half of the ball in RG terms has roughly 4 times as much volume but the same mass so once you have drilled approximaely .4375" (1.75/4) deeper you have now removes the same amount of mass as you did in the first 1.75" which returns the RG back to what you started with any thing past this point you begin to increase the RG.

This influence that the depth and diameter of the x-hole has on ball dynamics is the reasons that large shallow holes are recommended for lower rev bowlers and vise versa.

Edit: Just for clarifiaction the above ball example has a simple round core which makes up the 5" inner sphere and there is no filler material just core and cover. I added that so we are not dealing with more than 2 densities.
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Edited on 4/11/2007 7:25 PM