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Author Topic: Pin position question  (Read 4289 times)

Neptune66

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Pin position question
« on: December 13, 2010, 01:24:50 PM »
I know that Pin up generally results in more length  (and maybe more backend) and that pin down usually results in an an earlier roll. But am curious what the effects are of pin placement to the side. And how differently would a ball react with the pin durectly to the side of the fingers vs above or below and to the side (to the right for a right-hander).

Thanks for any info.

Edited on 12/13/2010 10:26 PM

 

DON DRAPER

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Re: Pin position question
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2010, 10:26:19 PM »
Most of my equipment has the pin right next to the ring finger. This places the pin appx. 4 1/2" from my PAP. This allows for a medium amount of track flare. As I said, most of my equipment is set-up like this. I rely on surface preparation more than anything else. I''m able to make this type of equipment work by changing my angle on the lane, axis rotation, ball speed, etc.

Edited on 12/13/2010 11:28 PM

Effybowler

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Re: Pin position question
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2010, 10:36:11 PM »
In general the closer to 3 3/8in  pin-pap distance, the more flare and more overall hook. As you get farther away, in general, the ball has less flare potential, which means less overall hook. However, on some high differential asymmetrical balls, having a bit longer pin to pap distance (say 4.5 or 5 in) will start the core in a weak position, but by the time the ball gets down lane the core ends up in a strong position, with the current axis close to 3 3/8 away from the preferred axis. The core being in this strong position at the breakpoint can cause an incredibly violent flip reaction.

But as a rule of thumb, pin up adds length, pin down rolls earlier, pin toward your pap hooks more, and pin towards your track hooks less.

bluerrpilot

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Re: Pin position question
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2010, 11:14:02 PM »
If 3 3/8 is the most flare and the most hook potential, then how does it make the ball go longer by having that same pin distance but one above the finger line compared to one below it
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Edited on 12/14/2010 0:14 AM

Neptune66

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Re: Pin position question
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2010, 06:01:39 AM »
Reason I posted this question is that I recently bought a 2nd unit of the same ball, but asked the driller if he could make it go a smidgen longer and stronger. I loved the 1st ball ---and his drilling--- just wanted to see if I could squeeze a even little more strength out of ball #2.

And despite many years (decades) in the game, I don't know anything about PAPs, but know that most of my equipment is drilled pin up (just over the ring finger) including ball #1. But Ball #2 is drilled with the pin next to the ring finger. So....  I was just wondering what the difference in roll between that ball and the 1st one is likely to be (because I haven't had a chance to throw ball #2 yet). Or at least what the INTENDED difference of that Pin position would be.

Thanks.

Locke

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Re: Pin position question
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2010, 06:26:45 AM »
quote:
If 3 3/8 is the most flare and the most hook potential, then how does it make the ball go longer by having that same pin distance but one above the finger line compared to one below it
--------------------
"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"

http://www.viseinserts.com/
http://www.astbowling.com/
http://www.phxbowling.com/acba

Edited on 12/14/2010 0:14 AM


This is one of the reasons you also look at the location of the MB or even look at the angle from the PAP like in a morich style layout.
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MrPerfect

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Re: Pin position question
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2010, 08:06:40 AM »
Yeah, what do the different MB positions do? Are some stronger than others?

MI 2 AZ

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Re: Pin position question
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2010, 02:28:10 PM »
From the Unoffical BR FAQ:


MASS BIAS
Simply put, the mass bias in a bowling ball occurs when the mass (weight block or portion of weight block) is bias (more dominant) in one direction inside of an object (in this case a bowling ball). If you took a bulb shaped, single density core and positioned it dead center from side to side inside the ball, there would be no mass bias. You also would have a ball that is a pin in.

In order to kick the c.g. away from the pin to create a pin out ball, you have to "tilt" the core inside the ball, or place the entire core slightly off center. This became a common practice among manufacturers as the demand for pin out balls increased. When this is done however, you create a "dynamic imbalance" inside the ball because the mass is more dominant or "bias" in the direction of the "tilt" or "offset". That is the most important factor when discussing the mass bias, it is a DYNAMIC POINT ON THE BALL. Positioning the mass bias in different positions when laying out a ball will have a great impact on the "motion" the ball will make as it is going down the lane (even arc, hook/set, skid/flip and so on).

There are people who will argue that static imbalances (finger weight, side weight etc) are more important than dynamic imbalances. My reply to that, is that a dynamic imbalance is a real point in the ball, it is constant and does not change unless you alter it by drilling into it with a drill bit. A static imbalance or the c.g., will change as soon as you put one hole in the ball. It will change again with each additional hole you put in the ball as well. While static weights can be used to "fine tune" the reaction of the ball at the break point, it is the dynamic lay out that dictates the roll of the ball. If a pro shop operator truly understands the principals of the mass bias and how to apply them, they can greatly increase your overall satisfaction with the ball you purchase.
On a ball that does not have a premarked MB its theoretical position can be found by measuring from the pin through the CG 6.75".


AFFECT OF PIN PLACEMENT
Pin to PAP distance:
0" - minimum flare potential, core is in its most stable position, earliest roll with smoothest arc.
1 1/8" - 1/3 of flare potential, stable core position, earlier roll with smooth arc.
2 1/4" - 2/3 of flare potential, semi stable core position, early roll with strong arc.
3 3/8" - max flare potential, most unstable core position, medium length with the most hook potential.
4 1/2" - 2/3 of flare potential, semi stable core position, late roll with flip/arc reaction.
5 5/8" - 1/3 of flare potential, stable core position, later roll with a flip reaction.
6 3/4" - minimum flare potential, stable core position, latest roll with strongest flip.
Remember : These reaction characteristics are all relative to the conditions they are being used on and may not perform as expected due to burning up too early or not setting up early enough.


AFFECTS OF MASS BIAS (MB) PLACEMENT
As the angle goes from 75° (strong/flip) to 0° length will be reduced and have more of an arc reaction. From 75° to 105° length will increase and have more of an arc reaction. Beyond 105° the reaction will keep a very similar reaction but with more length.
Remember : These only enhance the characteristics of the given ball and Pin placement and the flip (strong) position may not necessarily have the biggest backend reaction on given condition due to many other variables that affect ball reaction (bowlers specs, lane condition, etc.)

DEGREE SYSTEM
The degree system of drilling a ball is when a drill pattern is described or laid out by using the relationship between the angles of the lines from PAP to Pin and Pin to MB.
Examples: (A=PAP, P=Pin X=MB)


P-A-X is 0°      P-A is 45°    P-A  is 90°   P-A is 135°   X-P-A is 180°
..................\............|............/................
...................X...........X..........X.................


These are obviously not exact but they are good enough to get the meaning across.

PAP (POSITIVE AXIS POINT)
The axis of the ball during the first few revolutions that is created totally by the bowlers release style. The point on the ball that is equidistant from all points of the release ball track.

Ways to find it:
Least accurate: Draw a perpendicular (90°) line 6.75" from your track through grip center the end of the line will be close to your PAP.
Very accurate: Use an Armadillo Axis point locator tool. Place the Armadillo on your track using the line that most closely represents your track arc and mark the spot indicated by the Armadillo.
Exact: Roll low flare (spare) ball down the center of the lane where the highest concentration of oil is then using a grease pencil trace your track. Place the ball in a spinner with the track down and orient the ball to where when it it spinning the trace line does not wobble up and down. Then take the pencil and place it on the top of the ball and move it around until it goes from making a circle to a defined dot, or use a quarter scale/pro sect tool and draw a line connecting your track at points that are 180° from each other and repeat the step at a point near 90° from the first line where the 2 lines intersect is your PAP. If you do not have a low flare ball you can use any ball as long as you use the track that is closest to your thumb and farthest from your fingers. This is the release track, because as a ball flares the track migrates away from the thumb and towards the fingers.

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Edited on 12/15/2010 0:09 AM
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bluerrpilot

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Re: Pin position question
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2010, 03:18:58 PM »
quote:
quote:
If 3 3/8 is the most flare and the most hook potential, then how does it make the ball go longer by having that same pin distance but one above the finger line compared to one below it
--------------------
"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"

http://www.viseinserts.com/
http://www.astbowling.com/
http://www.phxbowling.com/acba

Edited on 12/14/2010 0:14 AM


This is one of the reasons you also look at the location of the MB or even look at the angle from the PAP like in a morich style layout.
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....so lets assume for an symmetric ball with no need for a weight hole...same question
--------------------
"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"

http://www.viseinserts.com/
http://www.astbowling.com/
http://www.phxbowling.com/acba

Neptune66

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Re: Pin position question
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2010, 10:42:07 PM »
Effybowler,

Your "rule of thumb" statement was basically what I had in mind.  Except I don't know where my "pap" is. I think it's different for each bowler, but for right-handed bowlers, could you describe the APPROXIMATE direction or location of that point in relation to the drilling (presuming normal placement of that)?

MI 2 AZ

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Re: Pin position question
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2010, 11:20:46 PM »
For a RH, PAP will be right of grip center some inches away.  Mine happens to be 4-3/8 right, 5/8 up.  I am a low-tracker.

http://www.stormbowling.com/drill-specs/key_drilling.pdf
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