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Author Topic: Pin Up vs Pin Down drilling  (Read 27499 times)

EL3MCNEIL

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Pin Up vs Pin Down drilling
« on: September 25, 2014, 06:47:01 AM »
Could any one help and give me a run down of the differences in Pin up/Pin down drilling's on balls. Any help is appreciated.
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spencerwatts

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Re: Pin Up vs Pin Down drilling
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2014, 07:13:34 AM »
As a rule of thumb, pin-up causes the ball to go longer, enabling the bowler to get that push down the lane. Pin-down causes the ball to pick-up sooner; the mid-lane is more of a factor with that layout.
 
The analogy that I've been told is pin-up is like the old finger weight layout while pin-down is like the old thumb weight layout.
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Gene J Kanak

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Re: Pin Up vs Pin Down drilling
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2014, 07:38:25 AM »
It all comes down to pin-to-PAP distance. Because most bowlers' PAPs are in the same general area, most will see the same general characteristics in pin up vs. pin down drillings. Pin up usually means longer pin-to-PAP distances, which promotes a delayed response to friction (i.e. the ball seeming to go longer). Pin down tends to promote a quicker response to friction (i.e. the ball reving up sooner). Again though, it's all about pin-to-PAP distance. Putting the pin over the ring finger may put me at a distance of 4", but it could put you at 5.5". If that's the case, the two of us are likely to see very different reaction characteristics out the same ball with what appears to be the same layout. That's why it's important to have a driller who takes the time to watch you bowl and record your PAP. If he or she simply assumes you're numbers are in the same ball park as everyone elses, you could end up with a ball that rolls like a complete dud for you.

dR3w

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Re: Pin Up vs Pin Down drilling
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2014, 04:04:23 PM »
I would love to see a clear cut answer to this question, but it seems like there is a lot of diversity of opinions on this subject. 

I think that I agree with Gene when it comes to Symmetric bowling balls.  I think the so called "drilling angle" has no effect on length for a symmetric ball.  I personally don't see any difference in how material would be taken out by drilling near the pin whether it is above it or below it.   Finally I don't see the pin distance up or down, making the core more or less stable … another reason I have heard.

With Asymmetric balls, I am not as positive.  I think BluePrint and other software has shown the drill angle matters in drilling an asymmetric bowling ball.  In that case, for most people (with a somewhat normal PAP), putting the pin down will actually create a larger drilling angle than having the ball drilled pin up.  This should result in more length for pin down drillings, not pin up.  I have yet to see any proof of this.  Are there any videos on the internet that definitively show two balls with the same Pin to PAP distance, and pin up vs pin down difference in reaction?

cheech

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Re: Pin Up vs Pin Down drilling
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2014, 04:11:33 PM »
the drilling angle on symetric cores doesnt matter becuase the ball's PSA migrates to the thumb hole unless a weight hole is added. pin up vs pin down affects the  VAL angle not the drilling angle and that affects the balls reaction to friction or how snappy or smooth the ball is. this is on symetrics and asymetrics

dR3w

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Re: Pin Up vs Pin Down drilling
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2014, 04:29:57 PM »
the drilling angle on symetric cores doesnt matter becuase the ball's PSA migrates to the thumb hole unless a weight hole is added. pin up vs pin down affects the  VAL angle not the drilling angle and that affects the balls reaction to friction or how snappy or smooth the ball is. this is on symetrics and asymetrics

Thanks for correcting me, it looks like I was wrong about the drill angle moving the pin up or down.   

EL3MCNEIL

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Re: Pin Up vs Pin Down drilling
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2014, 05:25:43 PM »
So from what I am getting is that if you want the ball to be more on the "rollie" side pin down would be the way to go and if you want to clear the fronts pin up would be the way to go. I know I am overly simplifying it but is that the general gist of it?
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J_w73

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Re: Pin Up vs Pin Down drilling
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2014, 05:27:44 PM »
Where the pin is in relation to the gripping holes (Angle or distance to the VAL) very much affects the dynamics of the ball and the reaction.   If the pin is lower (example: middle of grip), the holes will take mass out of the top of the core, make the ball more symmetric and lower the overall differential. This is why you usually get a smoother more rolly reaction.   If the pin is above the fingers, the holes will take more mass out of the side of the core, create more asymmetry, and increase the differential.  This is why you usually get a more angular and flippy reaction.

This is an example for any given pin to pap distance that would put the pin within or above the gripping holes.  With short pin to paps you won't see as big of a difference in reaction between different VAL angles (or distances from the VAL).  This is because the holes are taking mass out of the same general area of the core regardless of the VAL angle.
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Rightycomplex

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Re: Pin Up vs Pin Down drilling
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2014, 08:16:50 PM »
So from what I am getting is that if you want the ball to be more on the "rollie" side pin down would be the way to go and if you want to clear the fronts pin up would be the way to go. I know I am overly simplifying it but is that the general gist of it?

The general gist is that the pin up or down has no relevance on where the ball transitions especially on symmetricals. That relates to surface. To better explain it, if you drilled one ball pin up with the same pin to pap as another of the same ball pin down, you would would see very little difference if any in the 2 balls. You may see a slight difference in shape because of the difference in differentials but you would pretty much be able to stand in the same spot and throw the ball in the same area and see the same reaction. It isn't until you start applying weight holes to change the asymmetry, that you will see a reputable difference in reaction.

The reason the assumption of pin up versus pin down exist is because 7/10, when drilling the ball pin down, there is an excess of thumb weight which requires a weight hole in that area moving or strengthening the PSA, creating more flare which transitions energy faster so you get a smoother look to your reaction. Without the hole, the difference will be extremely minimal.

The ball will have a new pin position and PSA on symmetricals or stronger PSA or movement of MB on Asyms once drilled so pin up or down is irrelevant. There are also diff changes that play a roll in down lane transition.

The best answer is pin to pap controlling flare potential, weight hole placement manipulating PSA strength or movement, and most importantly surface to dictate when the ball transitions.





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Rightycomplex

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Re: Pin Up vs Pin Down drilling
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2014, 08:18:45 PM »
Where the pin is in relation to the gripping holes (Angle or distance to the VAL) very much affects the dynamics of the ball and the reaction.   If the pin is lower (example: middle of grip), the holes will take mass out of the top of the core, make the ball more symmetric and lower the overall differential. This is why you usually get a smoother more rolly reaction.   If the pin is above the fingers, the holes will take more mass out of the side of the core, create more asymmetry, and increase the differential.  This is why you usually get a more angular and flippy reaction.

This is an example for any given pin to pap distance that would put the pin within or above the gripping holes.  With short pin to paps you won't see as big of a difference in reaction between different VAL angles (or distances from the VAL).  This is because the holes are taking mass out of the same general area of the core regardless of the VAL angle.

Great explanation as well.
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Aloarjr810

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Re: Pin Up vs Pin Down drilling
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2014, 08:54:01 PM »
Here's from a old lanemasters drill sheet.(basically just for Symmetricals)

« Last Edit: September 25, 2014, 08:59:01 PM by Aloarjr810 »
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kidlost2000

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Re: Pin Up vs Pin Down drilling
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2014, 10:20:10 PM »
I love the cg to pap info. That makes me chuckle every time.
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northface28

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Re: Pin Up vs Pin Down drilling
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2014, 12:00:56 AM »
I love the cg to pap info. That makes me chuckle every time.

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dR3w

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Re: Pin Up vs Pin Down drilling
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2014, 12:23:02 PM »
Where the pin is in relation to the gripping holes (Angle or distance to the VAL) very much affects the dynamics of the ball and the reaction.   If the pin is lower (example: middle of grip), the holes will take mass out of the top of the core, make the ball more symmetric and lower the overall differential. This is why you usually get a smoother more rolly reaction.   If the pin is above the fingers, the holes will take more mass out of the side of the core, create more asymmetry, and increase the differential.  This is why you usually get a more angular and flippy reaction.

This is an example for any given pin to pap distance that would put the pin within or above the gripping holes.  With short pin to paps you won't see as big of a difference in reaction between different VAL angles (or distances from the VAL).  This is because the holes are taking mass out of the same general area of the core regardless of the VAL angle.

I don't see this at all.  I mean, the pin is the top of the core, correct?  So drilling with the pin above the fingers (within an inch or two), or drilling with the pin below the fingers (within an inch or two), should take mass out of the top of the core.  How can that be wrong?  Drilling out of the middle of the core would come from drilling  about 6.75 inches away from the pin, anywhere around the ball.

I mean look at this picture.  The finger holes are taking out the top of the core:

http://blueprintbowling.com/images/slideshow/Powerhouse_Blueprint.jpg

And if the yellow pin was just below the fingers, it would be taking weight out of the top as well.

spmcgivern

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Re: Pin Up vs Pin Down drilling
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2014, 01:17:12 PM »

I don't see this at all.  I mean, the pin is the top of the core, correct?  So drilling with the pin above the fingers (within an inch or two), or drilling with the pin below the fingers (within an inch or two), should take mass out of the top of the core.  How can that be wrong?  Drilling out of the middle of the core would come from drilling  about 6.75 inches away from the pin, anywhere around the ball.

I mean look at this picture.  The finger holes are taking out the top of the core:

http://blueprintbowling.com/images/slideshow/Powerhouse_Blueprint.jpg

And if the yellow pin was just below the fingers, it would be taking weight out of the top as well.


I think you need to consider the thumb also.  Most of my equipment have shallow finger holes, yet, deep thumbholes.  Plus, thumbholes are bigger.

I would imagine on a lot of balls the finger holes barely contact the core.  Taking out filler doesn't seem like much of a change.  However, drilling a thumbhole will take out core material (dense) thus affecting the dynamics of the core. 

So in your example, I would assume the thumbhole being directed toward the middle of the core will raise the rg.  If the pin was below the fingers, then the thumbhole would take out more at the top of the core, thus lowering the rg.