Author Topic: Do "wall shots" level the playing field? (Read 1189 times)

Ragnar · « **on:** December 07, 2004, 04:55:58 AM »

"Casey", from the West region (PBA) had this to say,

quote:
It may seem like blasphemy to some,but the truth is that the higher the scores,the more equal the "playing field".
( You notice that I didn't say more fair )
I think one's perspective about this scoring business is guided by that person's level of skill.
Let's say that I'm a top Regional PBA member with virtually unlimited access to free bowling balls and free practice.As that player,I've developed my game to the point that no matter how tough the conditions are,I'll have a much better chance of making the adjustments on the lane and will have the ball that I need to make those adjustments.
I actually spoke with one of those guys on Saturday,and he was of the opinion,and rightfully so,that he's penalized for his hard work by bowling on a lane condition that gives the "once a week hack" a chance to beat him.
Now,put yourself in the place of the aforementioned "hack".
Should that guy be penalized because he works 40 hours a week,has limited funds for equipment purchases and no time for practice?
Then,when he does invest his hard earned money at a scratch tournament,he has to beat the best bowlers around to "cash".
Both of the players in the examples I used above have a legitimate "beef".
Unfortunately,as distasteful as it is to some,walled up lanes are the great equalizer.

Any comment?
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"A little sincerity is a dangerous thing, and a great deal of it is absolutely fatal." Oscar Wilde
Ragnar sure likes to throw his purdy Uranium Buzzsaw.

pin-chaser · « **Reply #1 on:** December 07, 2004, 01:05:22 PM »

I wont agrue that point but I will add that today bowling ball technology has as much if not more impact on "artifical" scoring. While the oil on the lane can direct a ball to the pocket (as has always been the case) todays bowling balls gives even extremely poor thrown balls a good chance to strike. I heard it said here that the difference in bowling used to be measuerd by the consistancy of the release as scoring was dependant on it. However today scoring is more dependant on "matching" up bowling ball technology with conditions. Having bowled seriously from the late 70's I know for a fact that todays bowling balls expoit the condition better and explode the pins better.
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Rockbowler · « **Reply #2 on:** December 07, 2004, 01:05:49 PM »

The house hack maybe able to beat the Regional Pro but that is a big maybe. The better bowlers will be better in easier conditions and will average higher in walled conditions. On a good day, the house hack may pull a surprise but that will be rare.

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #3 on:** December 07, 2004, 01:41:41 PM »

This first statement is a generalization and is too simplistic!

When I was a golfer an easy course benefitted the guy with the great wedge and putting game. A long course that required accuracy benefitted me. A long course with rock hard greens benefitted someone who could hit it like me who also had a short game. Say a Greg Norman! Each was it's own element and a different type of player could benefit.

In my area right now the conditions are long thin and touchy at the break point except to guys with fast flowing motions and a lot of hand. Speeds of 18 mph and over dominate in my new area. These same players sometimes struggle on oil. Now as a bowler I have had very little problem on PBA so called tough shots(in pro ams where all around me area throwers are throwing 130s) I will often score 100 higher than my league scores. World team challenge shots I've often scored higher than league. Also they can also put out as much oil as they want and I can usually score. But a league 10 to 10 I don't often find myself near the top! So it is. Different bowlers love a wall and others don't!

SOme of the above guys I've mentioned in my area in the 18 mph and above area. I think Walter Ray would have his hands completely full if he came to town in a carry contest because these guys are carry monsters! Now tighten the playing field and they may disappear.

But don't forget, carry is an ability and skill of it's own! Not to be laughed at or sneezed at!

REGards,

Luckylefty
PS I admire the hell out of it!
. Now narrow thand

MichiganBowling · « **Reply #4 on:** December 08, 2004, 07:14:26 AM »

I know we've made this point before on this board, but I'll make it again since it seems to apply.

On a wall, the better bowlers will average higher more often than not. BUT...on a regular basis, the top 3-5 bowlers will NOT win high game pots. The same bowler may not beat them each time, but somebody will usually shoot a big game to beat them.

Meet my friend Tom Smallwood who finished 56th on the PBA tour last season and would have made the exempt tour if he wouldn't have missed the first tournament. Tom averages about 230 right now on our Wednesday night league on the great wall of China. He is about 3rd or 4th in average, and hardly ever wins a jackpot. I honestly think he's only won a pot maybe 3 or 4 times all year, and he's not losing to the few guys averaging higher than him! He's losing to 190-220 average bowlers who get hot for a game. And it seems to be a different bowler every game!

This is the state of THS bowling.
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Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com

Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"

agroves · « **Reply #5 on:** December 08, 2004, 07:14:41 AM »

THS favors EVERYONE that bowls on it. That is about the only thing I like about it. Anyone can be anyone on a given night. With that said, it is league play and some of us(me) are there to socialize and enjoy a night out. I try my best to beat my opponent and help my team. If I average 220 this year, fine, if it is 200, fine. I don't really care, as long as we win.

I bowled a non-THS tournament this weekend. It was 40 feet, med oil. I believe it was a christmas tree. There was a good amount of oil outside and very little swing room on the fresh shot. I laughed at a guy, I nicknamed him the lumberjack, b/c he throw all 6 or 8 balls he had. He wouldn't move right and square up, he was just looking for a ball to swing and that just wasn't the shot. Once the lanes brokedown some, you could get 3 maybe 4 boards at the breakpoint to hit the hole, but carrying was another issue.

Andrew
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FUFU

Chickenfoot

MichiganBowling · « **Reply #6 on:** December 08, 2004, 08:06:15 AM »

Is that why I don't make money on my sport tournaments Bones? hahaha.

This leads us back to the million dollar question of "What is broken--the game or the mentality?"

I say both! The game is unfair because our (general bowling public) has a broken mentality. If we can get competitive bowlers to think more like competitive golfers, then we can fix the game and make it more fair.

It really is as simple as that.
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Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com

Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"

agroves · « **Reply #7 on:** December 08, 2004, 08:10:04 AM »

quote:
Conditions are laid down to attract numbers, which equates to money for some one to make--namely, those who put on the tourney. Certainly the more entries, the more money to be made, so a tourney director will lay down a condition that allows all level of skill players a chance.

The wall is such a condition. Bowlers will enter a tourney where they can shoot good scores even if those scores do not cash. Those bowlers go away after shooting a high 6 or even maybe a 7, happy even though that score did not cash.

Bones, I know many, many bowlers that won't bowl tourneys b/c of THS. The feel that can't win in a carryfest contest. I would rather shoot 200 and win than 780 and lose.

Andrew
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FUFU

Chickenfoot

MichiganBowling · « **Reply #8 on:** December 08, 2004, 08:21:25 AM »

Wouldn't we all, agroves. But would you rather shoot 200 and lose by a little, or shoot 780 and lose by a little? Unfortunately, not everybody can win in a tournament. If we all only bowl in tournaments that we can win at, then what are we really doing?

You all know I would rather bowl on a tough shot, but the key is that I would rather LOSE on a tough shot than LOSE on THS. Even if I lose on a sport shot, I am able to learn something from the day, whereas on a THS, there is simply nothing to learn.
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Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com

Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"

agroves · « **Reply #9 on:** December 08, 2004, 08:36:11 AM »

quote:
Wouldn't we all, agroves. But would you rather shoot 200 and lose by a little, or shoot 780 and lose by a little? Unfortunately, not everybody can win in a tournament. If we all only bowl in tournaments that we can win at, then what are we really doing?

I guess the difference is, I would rather shoot 200 on a real pattern and lose to someone who I know out bowled me. If I shot 780 and lose on THS, I am not sure the guy made enough quality shots to beat me...

Michiganbowling, seems we agree.

andrew
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FUFU

Chickenfoot

MichiganBowling · « **Reply #10 on:** December 08, 2004, 09:07:42 AM »

Bones, why must we realize? We were simply giving our answers as they relate to us.

If you flavor poison to taste like...oranges (no, not chicken), people will eat it. But if they find out it's poison, will they stop eating it?
--------------------
Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com

Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"

jac · « **Reply #11 on:** December 08, 2004, 09:13:50 AM »

Sawbones,

Add me to the minority group with Agroves and michiganbowling.

I would rather lose to someone on a sport shot then
I would lose to carry on the THS.

Jac

pin-chaser · « **Reply #12 on:** December 08, 2004, 09:44:21 AM »

While we might be the minority today I think there is a growing passion in the bowling community at large to bring back the requirement of bowling skill and lessen the dependancy on technology and THS.

As for why torunament directors and proprietors decide to utilize a certian condition in all honesty, I think they are forced to by there competitors. Its a catch 22.. you cant be the first to stop or else you are out of business but yet someone somewhere has to start. Of course bowlers are going to bowl where they have the greatest opportunity to score... its like I have said.."giving candy to a baby". But now we are in this circle and we cant get out on our own without causing some level of damage. And yet, the status quo is causing damage already.

But again I want to re-itterate that walls have ALWAYS exsisted. Sure today they are more perfect than they ever were. But the big advantage today is bowling ball technology that exploits the condition better than ever and then provides a high carry percentage as well.

A perfect example for me is Rick Lawerance who won a PBA event a few weeks back. I used to bowl with ths guy in the early 80's in DFW. He looks the same today as he did then. I was averaging 210-220 he was averaging 200's. I suppose he was accurate back then as well as he is today. But the difference is bowling ball technology. Sure he does not create as much area on the lane surface... but then he doe not need it because of his accuracy. But what has improved is his carry percentage because of bowling ball technology. Back in the day... he hit the pocket much more and because of his bowling "style" he could not carry. Now with the same "style" he can carry with the big dogs more frequently. Dont get me wrong I am not bad mouthing Rick he has paid is dues and is certianly deserves his rewards. I am happy for him (and wish it was me).
--------------------

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mumzie · « **Reply #13 on:** December 08, 2004, 12:52:17 PM »

There is a bowler around here who is an ex Wichita player. He is a very good bowler, well thought of, and generally a nice guy. When he wins any kind of tournament, people kinda roll their eyes, and say "of course. He must have bowled well." Never a question about a wall, easy shot, carry contest, etc. That's not the case about a bunch of other folks I know.

Now - I bowled the sport league this summer with this guy. My game was seriously broken over the summer, and that didn't help things. But I out averaged him (sad, but true). I saw him this past weekend, and he said that he hasn't been bowling many of our local classic tournaments this year, because he doesn't want to compete on a house shot.

I think that here is someone who truly

quote:
would rather lose to someone on a sport shot then
would lose to carry on the THS.

I'm sure that opponents that I've beaten in the past have all felt that I just won the carry contest!!!
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Phillip Marlowe · « **Reply #14 on:** December 08, 2004, 02:35:32 PM »

quote:
There is one assumption that runs through this entire thread to which I disagree. I don't think any shot, including the house wall, rewards errant inconsitent releases. If you are swinging one shot and pulling the next you aren't going to score much over even 3 or 4 games. What a wall does is give some margin of error to more varied styles, and give the heavier handed players more options on where to play the lanes. Nobody throws big scores without a margin of error, even if they don't appear to be using it. Flatter patterns will still give some style a margin of error.

Bob, when the backends are crisp and the fronts and heads have a reasonable amount of oil, your point is well taken. However, many proprietors today have "softened" the backends so that, in the words of one proprietor "anyone and I mean anyone can get to the hole." On these types of conditions, which are becoming more prevalent, there is a huge premium on throwing as much and as hard side rotation as one possibly can. Forward roll bowlers, strokers and even most "tweeners" simply cannot generate sufficient consistent power and accuracy to score (unless they are lefties, where they can play straighter lines and stronger balls because fewer people are tromping on their lines and breaking down the oil). Under these conditions, you (and I) tend to have difficulty competing -- the flingers and lefties have too huge an advantage. (I am not talking about just late leagues with carrydown -- if the backends start crisp, you can generally find an area to get reaction) In essence, these types of conditions tend to eliminate the need for consistency in releases and do level the playing field for non-crankers and lefties, in fact, leveling it to the extent that bowlers with plastic balls who crank it can compete with more accurate bowlers who use reactive equipment. (In fact, I am seeing this more and more.)
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Author Topic: Do "wall shots" level the playing field? (Read 1189 times)

Ragnar

Do "wall shots" level the playing field?

pin-chaser

Re: Do "wall shots" level the playing field?

Rockbowler

Re: Do "wall shots" level the playing field?

LuckyLefty

Re: Do "wall shots" level the playing field?

MichiganBowling

Re: Do "wall shots" level the playing field?

agroves

Re: Do "wall shots" level the playing field?

MichiganBowling

Re: Do "wall shots" level the playing field?

agroves

Re: Do "wall shots" level the playing field?

MichiganBowling

Re: Do "wall shots" level the playing field?

agroves

Re: Do "wall shots" level the playing field?

MichiganBowling

Re: Do "wall shots" level the playing field?

jac

Re: Do "wall shots" level the playing field?

pin-chaser

Re: Do "wall shots" level the playing field?

mumzie

Re: Do "wall shots" level the playing field?

Phillip Marlowe

Re: Do "wall shots" level the playing field?