Author Topic: Poison (Read 2613 times)

MichiganBowling · « **on:** December 09, 2004, 03:11:43 AM »

I'll bring up my question from another thread...

If poison was flavored to taste like oranges, people would eat it. But if people found out it was poison, would they continue to eat it?

Obviously I am forcing you into an obvious answer there. But try to see how this applies to bowling and wall shots vs. togher shots, or high tech balls vs. limited specs.

I am told over and over how people like myself are in the minority and that the majority of people want the sport to be easy. So my point is, the majority of people want an easy sport of bowling because A) they dont' know any better and B) they've been brainwashed into the mindset of thinking the sport should require little to no talent in order to score high.

So if we can offer another option and educate the bowlers why this option will make them happier in the long run, then maybe they will be able to make a real choice.
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Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com

Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"

janderson · « **Reply #1 on:** December 09, 2004, 11:28:48 AM »

MB - In my opinion, you can add a C) to that list:

C) They never compete on tough conditions and never will compete on tough conditions

Education is a great idea, especially when you hear a one-house-one-league bowler talk about how much better he/she is than Walter Ray Williams or any of those other "guys on TV". Even with education, I'm not sure that bowler will care though. Peole want to score high and feel good about what they're doing. Given the option of working hard to score well versus having it easy to score well, most people will choose the path of least resistance. That isn't something unique to bowling.

Maybe if the education was more geared towards how to enjoy the sport. For many people high scores is what is enjoyable, low scores are miserable. Consider my position: I like it when a center puts out a new, different, or tough shot, even if that means my scores are going to dip. For me it is a puzzle to solve and a wonderful opportunity to learn and grow as a bowler and competitor. Sure, my scores may stink for a time until I "figure it out", but when I finally overcome the challenge and start tearing things up, there is a great sense of accomplishment for me. You'll never see me thumping my chest over shooting 750+ on a cake shot. To me, that's like being proud of beating up a one-armed, blind four-year old with MS in a wheelchair while she's asleep.

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Kill the back row (or maybe this should read "make your spares, dummy")

Edited on 12/9/2004 12:20 PM

RSalas · « **Reply #2 on:** December 09, 2004, 11:47:37 AM »

quote:
So if we can offer another option and educate the bowlers why this option will make them happier in the long run, then maybe they will be able to make a real choice.

I wonder, though, just how many of the bowlers who want the easy lane conditions will still be bowling in the long run.

Maybe I'm too cynical, but all I need to do is watch the annual shuffle of bowlers looking for higher-scoring centers to realize that anyone who hopes to educate the bowling community has a big-time uphill battle before them.
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"Dispensing conventional wisdom to a fingertip world."

Horrid in Doubles, torrid in Singles...
...that's The Curse of Dusty.

janderson · « **Reply #3 on:** December 09, 2004, 04:12:09 PM »

quote:
The problem is that not only is it not about tough or easy, more important the definition of tough is highly subjective.

Good point Bob. To me, a good working definition of a "tough" pattern is one that (at the beginning of the shift or as the pattern develops) does not give you a wide margin of error regardless of how you throw the ball, where you throw the ball, or what ball you're throwing. In other words, there is no "matching up", you're forced to try to repeat shots like a robot. Again, for a working definition, to me "tough" is where you have a board (not a board on either side of your mark) at the arrows and maybe two boards at the breakpoint.

What I do not mean is a pattern that is "tough" because I'm not versatile enough in my game to make the necessary adjustments or unwilling to make the necessary adjustments.

Rocket expanded on what I described as part of my enjoyment of the game. This year, one of my league houses has put out a very difficult shot. However, other people were scoring on it. I took this to mean that my game was somehow deficient. It was. It took several weeks of staying after league to practice and try new adjustments and different releases to score. I had to develop one of my "B" releases and learn to throw the ball faster to maximize my scoring. For me, the challenge and learning made me a better bowler, and that is enjoyable. Many people I've spoken to about the whole affair (they asked how I started scoring), including new bowlers, seem to appreciate the notion and want to experience something similar. And it only took 5 minutes of my time to "educate" them.

quote:
Maybe I'm too cynical, but all I need to do is watch the annual shuffle of bowlers looking for higher-scoring centers to realize that anyone who hopes to educate the bowling community has a big-time uphill battle before them.

Dusty - absolutely. I wonder if I'm just as guilty, though, shuffling the other way, intentionally looking for a difficult house.

'Bones - Yep, the dollar drives it all. Without houses to bowl in, we wouldn't have anything to complain about!

Good conversation, all.

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Kill the back row (or maybe this should read "make your spares, dummy")

Edited on 12/9/2004 5:06 PM

MichiganBowling · « **Reply #4 on:** December 09, 2004, 11:31:41 PM »

quote:
Brian, there are usually two options in most sports. Hardball was the only game until someone came up with the idea of softball and then slow pitch. This allowed players to decide which one to play. Guess how many fast pitch softball games exist today.

Golf courses offer an easy lay out and a difficult lay out. Place them across the street from each other and see which one gets the most play.

Tennis players are rated and tourneys and clubs have matches based on ones rating.

Baseball has the major league and then the minor leagues. Bowling has the PBA tour and then regionals and then we have scratch and handicap leagues. Guess where the majority of bowlers will be bowling tonight.

It seems you all have taken the bait. I completely agree with the points that have been made. BUT...there is one major difference between all of those other sports and bowling. Can anyone guess what that might be?
--------------------
Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com

Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"

MichiganBowling · « **Reply #5 on:** December 09, 2004, 11:53:40 PM »

Ok, so I'm impatient...hahaha.

The one major difference between any other sport and bowling is that you never see a semi-pro player sandbagging so that they can make money off amateurs (there may be the occassional exception, obviously). There is sooooooo much money in handicap tournaments and leagues and tourneys that have average caps in them, that you have potential PBA Regional champions and ex-Mega Buck champions bowling in 205 and under leagues. The structure is all bass ackwards!!!

College baseball players desperately want and strive to get drafted, and the minor league players work their tails off to get to the "bigs". High school kids want to make the NBA. High school and college kids want to make the NFL (Maurice who?). All of the money is at the top of these other sports, and some of those sports limit the tools (i.e. wooden bats) at those levels, so if you wanna hang with the big boys and win the big bux, you better learn to play with the lesser tools.

Do I think we need to ban resin bowling balls? Hell no! Do I think every center should put sport shots out 24/7/365? Absolutely not!!! But I think it is imperative for our sport to set some limitations at the higher levels, and not just at the PBA level as they have with the patterns already. Every city's classic league(s) should limit bowling balls and/or put tougher oil patterns out. We all need to be pushing for this type of restructure.

Why are there jackpots in handicap leagues? Why does there need to be big prize money in handicap leagues? The good bowlers should be competing against each other, and some entity (maybe the bowling center or local association?) needs to concentrate some efforts on padding the prize funds of the classic leagues, whether it means hiring somebody to get sponsors or going out into the community and getting sponsors themselves.

Our current structure of total chaos with 20-team leagues with guys/gals averaging as low as 100 and as high as 245 just doesn't work! We need an organized effort to rebuild the structure of competitive bowling, and we need the sheep to stop following the herd for at least a year or two until we can get the poison out of our orange juice.

In other words, we need to get competitive bowlers to look past their noses. 98% of the competitive bowlers will not look down the road and join a sport league next season. Rather, they will go where they know everybody else is on the easy walls, and bang their head against the wall for 32 weeks.

So the question I am really asking here is, how long do these people bang their head on the wall until they stop? Does it take blood? a mild concussion?

There really are only 3 choices--A) keep pounding your head on that wall until you die, B) Walk away (quit bowling), or C) take a stand and join a PBA league or sport league, have the guts to admit you don't know it all, and be willing to learn new things in our sport.

Again, these are the choices for competitive bowlers. For many, the sport is already difficult enough. But if they work on their game and get better, they need to have something to actually look forward to.
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Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com

Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"

Pinbuster · « **Reply #6 on:** December 10, 2004, 06:57:12 AM »

Sawbones â€“ We have your golf example here in town. About 5 years ago they decided to build a new public course. The new course is a corridor type with lots of water, many long forced carries, long, somewhat narrow, and the greens are tough. The slope rating is around 140 with the average city course rating around 110. It is in the best shape of all the city courses.

They open this course about 3 years ago. Everyone went to play it after it opened, most walked away shaking their heads saying they would never play that ball eating monster again. This despite the fact that there are 5 sets of tees and the shorter ones eliminate most of the narrow parts and forced carry over water.

Play on the new course has about 60% of what was expected. There has been talk of the city selling the course. But the simple answer is that most golfers donâ€™t want the challenge.

The net effect is the same as bowling. Most simply want to go and have a good time. They donâ€™t want to feel like the game is beating them up. They delude themselves somewhat with the easier conditions letting them think they are better than they are. In golf they are a little more honest with their abilities because the reduction in difficulty is easy to see, reduced undulations, bigger greens, shorter course, less water, fewer bunkers, and fewer trees.

By the way, Iâ€™m a masochist and play the new course all the time.

MichiganBowling · « **Reply #7 on:** December 10, 2004, 08:47:49 AM »

It's like you guys are only reading what you want to read in my posts. I don't understand it.

My goal is to get the COMPETITIVE bowlers to start bowling on the tougher conditions, NOT the 90% Joe Bowler types.

Am I wasting my time even posting in here anymore?
--------------------
Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com

Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"

MichiganBowling · « **Reply #8 on:** December 10, 2004, 10:12:17 AM »

Well I have basically done this survey by talking to nearly every competitive bowler in Michigan about it. What I've found out is that most of them talk the talk, but do not walk the walk. BUT, they all tell me that they don't think others will do it. So we essentially have let's say 100 bowlers all saying that they don't think the other 99 bowlers will do it, so it never happens.

If there was a way to prove to each of those 100 bowlers that there are more people that would do it, then we could make some progress. The reason we can't do it now is because those 100 bowlers are spread out into 10 different leagues!

This is the uphill battle that somebody mentioned earlier, and I know it is just that, but I still say it is worth it.

One other point I'd like to make about my sport tournaments...

You wouldn't believe how many people have called me, emailed me, or simply shown up at my tournaments that have QUIT bowling in recent years. For them, this sport bowling is intriguing, and it is bringing them back to the sport. And guess what, THEY ARE KICKING SOME ARSE IN THE TOURNAMENTS TOO! This is proof that people have indeed quit our sport because the game is simply unfair with the wall shots we have today. While it may not be fun for some to not be able to strike all day, for many of us, it is not much fun tapping all day and losing by a pin or two to somebody that hits the pocket solidly twice.
--------------------
Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com

Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"

janderson · « **Reply #9 on:** December 10, 2004, 10:16:45 AM »

On the lighter side...

Another difference between golf and bowling. When golfing on a tough conditions, such as desert target golf here, I often lose a ball on a bad, or even slightly errant shot. Losing balls gets expensive. Good thing my bowling ball comes back after a chuck it in the moat

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Kill the back row (or maybe this should read "make your spares, dummy")

janderson · « **Reply #10 on:** December 10, 2004, 10:29:08 AM »

quote:
It's like you guys are only reading what you want to read in my posts. I don't understand it.

My goal is to get the COMPETITIVE bowlers to start bowling on the tougher conditions, NOT the 90% Joe Bowler types.

Am I wasting my time even posting in here anymore?

Not at all. When I talk about the "status quo" bowlers or the "average" bowler, I'm also talking about a good deal of the "competitive" bowlers (that 10%) to which you are referring.

Here is (in my opinion) a sad example. There is a regional PBA member here in Phoenix. He considers himself one of the city's and state's elite bowling competitors. He bowls two handicap leagues per week in the same house. He doesn't own a bowling bag to my knowledge - he uses a locker at his league house. He doesn't bowl the city, state, or national ABC events. He doesn't bowl any of the local handicap tournaments or participate in in state classic tour. He has never been to a PBA event, not even as a spectator***.

Some people at that center have the same opinion of this guy as he does of himself: great bowler, elite, true competitor, blah blah blah. Others following his example will end up doing as he has done.

In my opinion, he either doesn't know any better or simply refuses to acknowledge other information. He averages in the 205 range, sprays stuff all over the place, and only plays one single line.

To sum this guy up, and many other "competitive" bowlers (big fish in little ponds) it is a good ball if all the pins go down.

These are the people who would benefit from some education. The problem, as I see it is, as stated above, people tend to choose the path of least resistance. At least by default. They must see the value of the education before accepting it.

*** - Before anyone jumps on me, yes, PBA rules state that you must participate in one tournament a year to hold your card. But if you talk to any of your regional pros (at least in this region), the PBA has been lax in enforcing this rule, apparently in an effort to increase membership. After all, the PBA is in business to make money, and if people want to send them membership dues and do nothing...

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Kill the back row (or maybe this should read "make your spares, dummy")

Pinbuster · « **Reply #11 on:** December 10, 2004, 11:06:05 AM »

MichiganBowling â€“ I hear your pain but I feel that the simple fact that sport bowling is not taking off is proof that most bowlers, even high average scratch bowlers, donâ€™t want tougher conditions.

We probably have as competitive bowling environment as anywhere. There are but a handful of scratch leagues in town and only one sport shot league. It is a trio league and they have problems getting it going every year.

Sport shot tournaments are one thing but it is a tough road to get someone willing to commit to a full league schedule.

Iâ€™m all for tougher conditions but I feel they should be universally applied rather than selectively applied to only scratch leagues. Everyone should compete on the same field of play.

janderson · « **Reply #12 on:** December 10, 2004, 01:19:47 PM »

quote:

Sport shot tournaments are one thing but it is a tough road to get someone willing to commit to a full league schedule.

Added to this is the problem that most centers don't want to do the extra leg work that ABC requires to be fully sport-compliant. We have more problems with that here than we do generating interest with the bowlers. Maybe if we negotiated a higher lineage with the center, the center would be willing to do all the extra work, but then you run into problems with the bowlers not wanting to pay extra lineage. (somebody put a quarter in the meri-go-round)

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Kill the back row (or maybe this should read "make your spares, dummy")

MichiganBowling · « **Reply #13 on:** December 10, 2004, 01:49:14 PM »

Well then I guess I should just sit back and watch our sport collapse. League bowling, as it is, is not fun anymore. I watch guys spray the lane and beat me on a regular basis as I hit the pocket well all night and lose.

Perhaps I should give up like most of you have, regardless of the fact that I see more people wanting to bowl on sport conditions and challenging patterns over the past few months. Perhaps I am hallucinating and nothing I am doing is working, even though the numbers tell me otherwise.

I apologize for the sarcasm, but I'm tired of watching the same people just beat my posts down with negativity. A few people posted in this thread some good ideas that DO work. Such things as seminars and coaching, sport shot practice sessions. These things, when implemented properly, DO WORK!

The only thing I wish all of you would do is stop worrying so much about what others are going to do and what others are going to think, and made a stand on your own. Rather than telling me I'm in the minority, even though you may agree with me, tell me that you agree and would like to see it happen too.

Pinbuster, I appreciate your sympathy, but it's not necessary. Sport bowling hasn't taken off the way they thought because they didn't release it in the proper manner. It was another half-arsed attempt at making a change without taking an actual stance on anything.

Perhaps what you see in your area is truly that much different than what I see in my area. This point has been made before. But I still say we are either part of the solution or part of the problem.

Adam ate the forbidden apple and suffered for doing so. So why must Adam's great great great great great great great grandchildren keep eating the apple and keep suffering? Why can't we learn from our mistakes?
--------------------
Brian
MichiganBowling.com
http://www.MichiganBowling.com

Famous Last Words of a Pot Bowler--"Ok, but this is my last game!"

SrKegler · « **Reply #14 on:** December 10, 2004, 01:53:42 PM »

The problem with surveys Brian is people tend to be less than honest.

Quite a few years ago, before most of the guys on here were even born, an auto manufacture sent representatives all over the US asking people what kind of car they really wanted.

Everyone said small, compact, good mileage, etc.

Thus the Nash Metropolitan was born. Car sold like crap.

The next year, the representatives went back and asked what type of car do you think your neighbor prefers.

Consensus was big, flashy, powerful.

All depends on how you ask the question.

In my area the problem seems to be the disparity between averages. We have about 15 people over 215, about another 15 over 210. That gives us about 30 bowlers that can really compete with each other. Out of that 30 we could probably make up 4 scratch teams. Sure not much fun on a league that small.

What happened here, and probably in other places, scratch leagues died. Just to get some competition, the â€œeliteâ€ bowlers were forced to join the handicap leagues. There still wasnâ€™t any real competition so brackets were invented. This let the top bowlers compete again.

Our previous sport type leagues folded mainly because of the 180-190 average bowlers. Sure the guys averaging >215 took a hit average wise, but the medium tier bowlers dropped to 130-140, primarily because of their spare shooting. Even on tougher conditions, the lower average bowlers couldn't compete, just not enough real scratch bowlers to fill out the league.
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~~~SrK - Have balls, will travel

Spending the kids inheritance one tournament at a time.

Author Topic: Poison (Read 2613 times)

MichiganBowling

Poison

janderson

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RSalas

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MichiganBowling

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