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Author Topic: Post bowling  (Read 16752 times)

coco3085

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Post bowling
« on: January 12, 2016, 08:38:30 AM »
I know I've seen this on here before, but can you guys tell me the rule governing post or pre bowling. We had a team show up on a Saturday, and bowl 6 games to make up for games missed up to two months ago. Thanks

 

BallReviews-Removed0385

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Re: Post bowling
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2016, 08:45:35 AM »
Check your own league rules.  Refer to rule 111 in the USBC rule book (starts on page 47).

Most leagues do not allow post bowls nowadays because it can change standings for every week thereafter, making it a Secretarial Nightmare as well as a "fairness issue" depending on your perspective.  In all the leagues in our house I can only think of one that allows post-bowling, and they are not sanctioned...

Pre-bowling is more common and is easier to track, but each league can adopt their own policy on the subject.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2016, 08:56:43 AM by notclay »

milorafferty

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Re: Post bowling
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2016, 09:56:10 AM »
I've never heard of post bowling from 2 months ago. That just makes no sense. Usually, league rules will only allow a couple of weeks.
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AMF300bowler

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Re: Post bowling
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2016, 10:58:42 AM »
Pre and Post bowling should be eliminated. You signed up to bowl 33 weeks on Tuesday at 7:00pm. Can't make it? You forfeit.

Pre and Post bowling is never the same as bowling in your league against your opponent.
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coco3085

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Re: Post bowling
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2016, 11:05:07 AM »
Thanks for the input guys

JohnP

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Re: Post bowling
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2016, 11:38:37 AM »
Pre and Post bowling should be eliminated. You signed up to bowl 33 weeks on Tuesday at 7:00pm. Can't make it? You forfeit.

Pre and Post bowling is never the same as bowling in your league against your opponent.

Agreed, but not economically realistic today.  With the rotating shift work schedules moving from 8 hours to 12 hours some people simply can't possibly make it to league about half the time.  There aren't enough others that want to bowl to make up for those that can't.  Our leagues allow individual prebowling for any reason and post bowling for weather and emergencies (with approval before the league bowls).  --  JohnP

WOWZERS

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Re: Post bowling
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2016, 11:57:38 AM »
Although I agree with the thought process of "You signed up for bowling on X day at X time", we have lost enough league bowlers that we need to accommodate those that are still here and with the changing dynamics in the workforce, pre-bowling needs to be allowed and to an extent, post-bowling.

I would like to see pre-bowling allowed anytime from the previous scheduled league session completes until the next league session starts, and post-bowling allowed up till the next league session starts after the night missed. If another league session occurs, you can no longer post-bowl, now you forfeit.

Just an opinion.

trash heap

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Re: Post bowling
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2016, 10:34:42 AM »
Most leagues do not allow post bowls nowadays because it can change standings for every week thereafter, making it a Secretarial Nightmare as well as a "fairness issue" depending on your perspective.  In all the leagues in our house I can only think of one that allows post-bowling, and they are not sanctioned...

Based on USBC. Scores are always entered at the time they are bowled to determine average. Example: It's week two. Bowler finds out not going to be able to bowl on Week 4.  Works something out with the center and decides to bowl his 3 games after league on  week 2. Those pre-bowl games counts against his average for week 3. They are not held up for week 4. The same goes with post bowling.


Quote
Rule 118 – Averages

Commonly Asked Questions – Rule 118a.

118a/3 Our league rules allow both individuals and teams to pre-bowl. Can the league
secretary hold the pre-bowled scores and apply them to individual average records on
the date the pre-bowled games are bowled for?

No. Scores are not held until the date games are pre-bowled for when individuals or teams are granted permission to pre-bowl for a later league session. The scores pre-bowled are entered into the bowler’s average record at the time bowled and before the next regular scheduled session to calculate the current average.
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BallReviews-Removed0385

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Re: Post bowling
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2016, 06:16:37 PM »

Pre bowls and post bowls are not the same.  Scores for average are one thing.  Scores that determine standings (and prize money) are an entirely different issue.

Example:  Joe Bowler doesn't show up for league and so the team uses his absentee score.  Three weeks later he decides to post bowl for the week he missed.  All wins, losses, everything are subject to change, and not just for his team, but every team they bowled against.  How is that fair?  One week your team is ahead of Joe Bowler's and the next you're behind and it didn't even matter whether you bowled well or not...


SG17

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Re: Post bowling
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2016, 07:46:32 PM »
as I recall, you can not eliminate pre-bowling entirely by league rule.  there is (or at least used to be) a USBC rule allowing pre-bowling regardless of league rule for the purpose of bowling Nationals. 

about 7 years ago I had to invoke that rule for a league where 3 of our 4 bowlers were heading to nationals.

post bowling should be eliminated for sure:  too much possibilities for manipulation.

mrwizerd

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Re: Post bowling
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2016, 08:33:07 PM »
I may be wrong, but I thought you couldn't pre/post bowl as an individual when you bowl on a team.  If your team is going to miss a night of bowling, for whatever reason, you pre/post bowl as a team or non at all.

Aloarjr810

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Re: Post bowling
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2016, 10:13:22 PM »
I may be wrong, but I thought you couldn't pre/post bowl as an individual when you bowl on a team.  If your team is going to miss a night of bowling, for whatever reason, you pre/post bowl as a team or non at all.

It all depends on if the league rules allow individual unopposed bowling in their rules.

Also Joe Bowler can't just up and decide to pre or post bowl either there are rules (Rule 111 – Pre-bowl/Postponements) governing it which are supposed to be followed.

If those rules are not followed, it's not the USBC's fault it's the leagues and the bowlers.

Post bowling weeks or months later is easily stopped, the postponement committee just denies it. Leagues should also add time limits to their rules on post bowling make up games also.



« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 10:15:07 PM by Aloarjr810 »
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ccrider

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Re: Post bowling
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2016, 01:41:22 PM »
We can pre or post bowl but must be completed before the position round of each quarter.

trash heap

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Re: Post bowling
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2016, 10:06:51 AM »

Pre bowls and post bowls are not the same.  Scores for average are one thing.  Scores that determine standings (and prize money) are an entirely different issue.

Example:  Joe Bowler doesn't show up for league and so the team uses his absentee score.  Three weeks later he decides to post bowl for the week he missed.  All wins, losses, everything are subject to change, and not just for his team, but every team they bowled against.  How is that fair?  One week your team is ahead of Joe Bowler's and the next you're behind and it didn't even matter whether you bowled well or not...

Incorrect he post bowls with the average he has established with the league at that moment. His scores would only affect the week he is post bowling. That is it. His scores are locked in for all the other previous weeks.

Example: Joe Bowler has an average of 185 after week 2. Misses week 3. For an extreme example, he does not post bowl for week 3 until after week 10. His week 10 average is 162. The average used for his week 3 post bowl would be 162. All matches from week 4 to week 10 are locked in and can't be adjusted.

The situation you describe, makes me wonder why he would be allowed to post bowl in the first place. Your league would have to have specific rules to allow individual post bowling. If they did, the absentee scores should not have been used (Match still up in the air). If regulations were followed he needed to make a request to the post/pre bowl committee or the board of directors for approval to post bowl. If that team had a legal line-up that night (even though the team was short a person) I think most committees would NOT grant the post bowl (I could be wrong).
   
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trash heap

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Re: Post bowling
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2016, 10:25:44 AM »
Just as a side note on this subject. USBC Rules only permit 2 types of pre/post bowling in adult leagues.

1. Team Direct opposition (Both Teams Pre/Post Bowl at the same time)
2. Team Unopposed (unless the league adopts a rule prohibiting this type of competition)

Any leagues that allow individual pre/post bowling must have it written somewhere in their league rules. Which means it can be changed with a league vote. If most members in your league don't like pre/post bowl then vote to have it set up like the USBC recommends (Team Only). It really simplifies things on this issue.


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