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Author Topic: Question for you physics majors...  (Read 2023 times)

9andaWiggle

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Question for you physics majors...
« on: March 10, 2004, 08:51:12 PM »
The objective is to pick up the 7-10 split.  Usually, I throw 15 lb. equipment.  Since I will need to rely on bouncing either the 7 or the 10 pin back out of the pit to convert the spare, would I be better off to throw a different weight ball?

Would a 16lb. ball thrown, say, 2 mph slower (due to added weight) hit the pin harder and make it more probable to kick out of the back?  OR - would a 14 lb. ball thrown 2mph faster (due to less wieght) generate a more favorable chance for the kick out?  OR - is it possible that the 15lb at normal speed would be be the best?

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Jeffrevs

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Re: Question for you physics majors...
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2004, 11:58:27 AM »
9~
I don't think it has to do with weight, it's the angle you hit it and it's ability to jump out of the back........
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guzmand19

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Re: Question for you physics majors...
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2004, 12:12:04 PM »
It all depends on how you want to make it.  Even throwing the ball at 22 mph, if you hit it dead on or almost dead on, you just knock the pin in the pit.  If you take a 16 lb ball, and catch the inside with enough force you might be able to knock it from sidewall to sidewall.  Or take a 15 lb ball, catch the very outside and hope for a favorable jump.  

I converted the 4-7-10 by sheer luck, throwing a regular straight ball (not muscled) at the 4-7 to take count.  Hit the 4-7 dead on, and somehow the pin hit the backwall, bounced off the ball, and all the way across and wiped out the 10.  I was as shocked as anything. But it just shows ya, a lot of it was sheer luck
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BadShot

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Re: Question for you physics majors...
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2004, 12:36:58 PM »
to answer your question, you have to consider the factors involved . . .

let's make some assumptions, shall we?!?

you're throwing the ball straight, with the intent of banging one pin off the side wall and/or backstop to hit the other pin.

you're going to throw the ball with the same speed (which may or not be the case, but it's an assumption).

a 16 pound ball will hit with more force than a lower weight ball.

but will this force necessarily result in more pin action?

again, we would probably assume that the more force exerted on the pin, the greater the pin action . . . the pin would bounce harder against the side wall/backstop.

the only force that can be applied against the pin is the force THAT THE BOWLER SUPPLIES.  if the ball is thrown with the same amount of force, it would equate to faster speed with lighter equipment.  given another assumption that you're using the same coverstock on each weight ball, you would probably be transferring the same amount of force from the ball to the pin for each weight of ball.

does that make sense??

at the end of the day, it's all about luck!!
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That which does not kill me makes me stronger . . .
That which does not kill me makes me stronger . . .

Fatboy8

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Re: Question for you physics majors...
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2004, 12:46:04 PM »
I read one time, that the best way to pick it up, with the biggest percentage of making it, is to shoot at the pin that is on the opposite side of the ball return. The pit in the back is shallower on that side, thus more of a bounce out toward the other pin to take it out, but luck is always the big factor!!
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jaco0268

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Re: Question for you physics majors...
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2004, 01:06:23 PM »
From a Physics point of view
Force=Mass*Velocity

So, If you throw it
20MPH with a 15 pound
you are exerting a force of 300

22 MPH and 14 pounds
Force = 308

18 MPH and 16 pounts
Force =288


So from that standpoint you exert a higher force on the pin with more speed and less weight, but.......there are many more things that come into play.  Like how long that ball will apply that force to the pin, and how much the ball will deflect.   So in this case even though you are applying more force to the pin with a lighter ball, it is not being utilized efficiently in the transfer of energy, becasue it has less momentum, and will lose energy quicker and deflect more.  

In the end, just screw physics, and hope for a lot of luck.   The only guy I have ever seen pick it up was 75, and threw and 8 pound ball.

marauder181

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Re: Question for you physics majors...
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2004, 01:18:40 PM »
Does anyone go after splits the opposite way?  Instead of hitting the pin hard, try to get as slight and light a pin as you can and hope for it to cross the lane?  I've never gotten the 7/10 but got the 7 pin to dance maybe two-thirds of the way across the lane after about as light a hit as you can. I actually consider that to be a talent of mine, having enough control to throw a ball as slow as possible and get as glancing blow as you possibly can to a pin.  I've gotten the 4 6 10 this way a few time.  Would love to hear the comments on this technique.

BadShot

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Re: Question for you physics majors...
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2004, 01:38:33 PM »
i picked up a 7-10 once . . . hit the 10 pin on the right side, hit the back middle of the screen, popped out and hit the 7 pin.  either way you try it, it'a all about the luck, baby!!!
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That which does not kill me makes me stronger . . .
That which does not kill me makes me stronger . . .

spatten

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Re: Question for you physics majors...
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2004, 06:08:56 PM »
Actually,

Force is not equal to Mass * Velocity.  So this equation is not a factor.

Force = Mass * Acceleration.  You could use this equation to determine how much force you are applying to accelrate the bolwing ball - but that doesn't help. To answer your question, I would be much more interested in the momentum of the ball you are throwing.

Momentum = Mass * Velocity * Velocity * .5

How do you apply this?   Well if you increase your ball weight from a 14lb to 16lb ball you have an approx 14% increase in mass which equals a 14% increase in momentum assuming balls are thrown at the same speed.  However if you increase your speed by 14%, since velocity is squared, your momentum is increased by 30% assuming the same weight ball.  So all other factors being equal, a ball thrown faster will have more momentum than a heavier ball for the same increase.  This will equate to more energy delievered to the pin.

Of course there are several other factors as everyone is saying, including angle of incidence, coefficient of restituion of the ball, and on and on - but the bottom line is go for speed.

Also, the likelyhood of a ball to toe up and hit the kickback is increased with speed - due to the differences in center of gravity of the pin and bowling ball. Watch people with fast balls, the pins going flying in the air.  I think rotation, or rather the track the ball is rolling on when it hits,  will determine how much the pins scatter to the side, though I cannot back that up with physics at this point in time.



Thanks,
Scott

Edited on 3/11/2004 7:09 PM

Edited on 3/11/2004 7:10 PM

GendouIkari

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Re: Question for you physics majors...
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2004, 06:22:48 PM »
quote:
Momentum = Mass * Velocity * Velocity * .5

Spatten, thats wrong too, the equation you put was Kinetic energy, you were right saying F=M*A but MOMENTUM is P=M*V so jaco0268 gave a good statement with a wrong name... Momentum is what we want, because on Greater momentum you need greater mass or force to stop the object moving... But THATS NOT WHAT WE WANT ON A 7-10 WE NEED ANGLE, BOUNCE (on the back or the wall) AND LOTSSSSS OF LUCK...
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spatten

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Re: Question for you physics majors...
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2004, 06:33:57 PM »
Doh!
Thanks for catching that, it has been awhile. Conservation of momentum will certainly apply in any collision, so I think you are correct.  Now I have to try and remember wether conservation of kinetic energy applies or not.

I still think speed is going to help get that pin airborne.  Just have to figure out how to prove it.

That's what you get for typing off the top of your head.
Scott

GendouIkari

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Re: Question for you physics majors...
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2004, 06:43:55 PM »
Hey Spatten the thing about energy is that we have rotation... so energy is not only 1/2M*V^2 is that plus the rotational energy of the ball... so really I think that more revs will help to get the pin airborne more than speed... OBVIUSLY a 2mph ball will never get the pin to the other side, but 2+ or 2- will not affect as much as angle and revs...
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T-GOD

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Re: Question for you physics majors...
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2004, 12:13:20 AM »
9Wiggle, jaco and Hanson have it correct. A lighter ball thrown at a faster speed, with less revs, will give the pins maximum bounce. I can vouch for this.

I've made the greek church twice, both with a 14 lb. ball thrown hard like a knuckle ball at the 6-9-10. I threw at the 10 pin, hitting light on the 6 pin. The 6 hit the front of the 9 pin, sliding over into the corner of the 7 pin and it bounced out of the corner, taking out the 7 and 4.

Every time I roll the ball with revolutions at the corner pins(6-10), they don't bounce, they stay lower in the pit and don't come out. =:^D

9andaWiggle

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Re: Question for you physics majors...
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2004, 11:31:51 AM »
So, maybe a 10lb. ball fired at 50mph is the answer? LOL

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9~

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." - Benjamin Franklin
Little Bo Peep has lost her sheep...

I wonder where they went? ;)

Overhand

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Re: Question for you physics majors...
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2004, 12:12:51 PM »

I think I'd rather put more effort into not leaving it...
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