BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: xrayjay on May 17, 2016, 11:51:04 AM
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what is power and where does it come from?
It seems so many coaches have different philosophies or teachings on power.
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Short answer: My opinion of "power" is speed and revs applied to the ball from the bowler and it comes from leverage.
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Power is the name of the game today. Today's "power" actually comes from a much different source than "power" came from in the old days---the days of the traditional stroker. In the old days, power (revs) came from maintaining a firm wrist up and through the release. In addition, this was coupled with the bowler maintaining a more erect vertical and lateral spine angle throughout the approach and release. In those days, power indeed, came from leverage----leverage created by the firm wrist and minimal spine angles--- which used the major muscles of the back.
Power today comes from an entirely different source. It results in
the wrist collapsing at the point of release. It's similar to how the wrist uncoils when flipping a frisbee. The power actually comes from a lack of body and hand leverage, especially at release. It actually requires the bowler's torso and hand to be in a weaker (not stronger) position---just the opposite from the "old days".
This is sometimes difficult to see at first glance but it is true. In order for the bowler's hand to completely collapse at release, it requires the bowler to deploy increasing amounts of spine tilt (especially side -lateral tilt). This places more of the weight of the ball directly onto the hand, since the spine and the muscles surrounding the spine
are no longer in a "strong" position to create the "leverage" to support the hand. This
lack of "leverage" becomes greatest where the ball is heaviest--at the bottom of the swing. This naturally causes the wrist to "collapse" at release, which creates the power and revolutions that you see in the contemporary game. It is often thought that today's power comes from (muscular) strength. It's the exact opposite that is the source of this power----it's due to a lack of leverage. Leverage was needed to create power and revs in the old days. Not so today.
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The LEGS supply the power, while the arm is for direction. I try to imagine 70% effort from legs, and 30% the arm/wrists/hand.
I don't disagree with the previous posts either. If you'll use the large muscles in the legs to carry the load you'll last longer before tiring. If your footwork is good and your legs are carrying the load "your" release will usually fall into place.
How many guys with GREAT releases (using tons of muscle) 5 years ago are now having carpal tunnel and rotator cuff surgeries?
"Power" is a combination of good body mechanics and a consistent release. Bergman went into great detail on the modern release above. Just make certain that you're using proper body mechanics or you'll have a short window of success and the rest of your life wondering what happened.
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Darn, all this time I just thought you bought it in a box. If all this is true, then a person with these skills should just use a "house ball" and save all his money for cold ones celebrating his many victories.
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To follow up on Lane's post about the importance of your legs in bowling. Several years ago I had the good fortune to take some lessons from one of the greats--Bill Hall.
At the time, Bill was working out of the now defunct Showboat Lanes in Las Vegas.
I spent a few days with Bill. On my first day, he analyzed my game and told me that he wanted me to get my legs into the game for better power and consistency. At the time,
I had been in a terrible slump and was looking to him for some direction. Towards the end of that first day he sat down with me and said, "by the time you are finished here you will probably be cursing me because your legs are going to be sore". Well, I did not curse him (quite the opposite). When I was ready to depart Vegas, my legs were indeed quite sore because he utilized drills that focused on using my lower body and less use of the (upper torso). The sore legs were sending me a very important message ( They were telling me that I was had not been using them to their maximum potential). Needless to say, my game rapidly improved from that point on.
As I get older, it becomes even more important that I keep my legs in shape. I do exercises for just this purpose.
So, if you begin to see your game trailing off, especially during longer formats, it might just be due to your legs not being up to the task at hand.
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Darn, all this time I just thought you bought it in a box. If all this is true, then a person with these skills should just use a "house ball" and save all his money for cold ones celebrating his many victories.
The right ball is an important factor, but if you can't hit the same spot twice it won't matter what you're using.
As I have aged (and had a shoulder reconstruction) I've noticed that I need to focus on repeating shots and reading ball reaction better. The days of "grip it and rip it" are long gone for me. I NEED my legs to do the work...
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Balls are not powerful nor weak. They merely have much different friction coefficients. Power is generally defined as being able to apply side roll to a ball at a high rate of revolution. This power would quickly dissipate but for the oil on the front part of the lane which makes the ball skid prior to changing direction. The more power ( higher rev rate ) the harder and sooner a ball will change direction. It is the hard change of direction ( not the amount of change ) that translates to hitting power through the lessening of deflection as the ball hits the head pin.
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That's correct, Avabob. A plastic 3-piece ball has the same amount of "hook" in it as do the top-of-the-shelf balls of today. It might take 200 feet of length for the plastic ball
to cover the same amount of boards as the best balls of today, regardless of surface or core design but they both possess the same amount of "hook" if they are of the same weight and density.
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Can't let loose of all the comments about"power" in bowling. Most were that it takes "revs", "speed", "axis rotationl", "tilt". All inferring a masculine type of power.
Now, I've had the pleasure, and good luck to have bowled around some of the top women bowlers. 95% of them don't do all these power things, but they can strike all day. One thing in common they all have is the ability to use the oil, not the dry, to position their ball. Secondly, they position their ball to have the best chance of a strike(angle). Third, they control their breakpoint to be as close to the pocket as they can. Last but not least most of them have revs that match up to their speed. I would bet most of them are covering around 21" of floor for each rev. when their ball hits the pins. Combine that with the close in breakpoint they all have and you have "power.
So, power can be other things besides high revs, high speed, lots of axis rotation. It is also putting all the mechanics together in the proper way.
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Power is still a factor no matter how much of a finesse game you have. It is about being efficient in utilizing the power. There is way more friction available than is necessary for maximum carry in the modern game. One of the reasons I don't get as excited and upset about the two handed trend is because it is really not necessary to create the amount of revs those guys do. Unless they are very accurate ( some are ) a lower rev player can compete with them if they are more accurate in controlling breakpoint.
Having said the above here is where power is an issue. Because of the friction in todays game the power players blow up the oil pattern and make it necessary to have more ball speed to over power the blown up conditions. One poster cites the success of women players who utilize oil and are accurate. As a 68 year old senior, my game is a lot closer to those women than to Sean Rash or Belmonte. What that means is the women and I can stay with the power guys for a few games, but when they inevitably blow up the pattern we are toast without speed and rev rate to get left.
Lower the friction ( either ball surfaces or make oils that hold up much better ) and you put more emphasis on finesse, and less on rev rate and ball speed.
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I can relate to that. As a 66 year old senior, I enjoy watching the women bowlers because our physical games are very similar. However, my "problem" is the opposite of what most seniors experience. My natural game is clearly in the "more-speed-to revs category. I struggle on longer, heavier patterns, whether they are THS or sport shots. Speed varies of course, depending on the ball being used as well as how much friction there is on the lane at any given time but on average, my natural ball speed hovers around 19mph. So for me, those wonderful Abralon pads are my best friend, as I am on the constant hunt for friction--lol.
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Just goes to show you cant generalize too much. I wish I could buy some of your ball speed from you. I suspect what you point out may be an example of seniors having to choose between strong side roll and generating ball speed. Fortunately for me my rev rate and ball speed are reasonably well matched. My arm swing which is probably the best part of my game limits being able to generate the kind of speed and revs the young guys can. It makes me a niche player, but at least it is a bigger niche thanks to my accuracy and the choices I have with modern balls.
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Indeed. Many years back I attempted to convert to a power game---- Unfortunately,
it was a bust. It took me the better part of 2 seasons just getting back to my original (stroker) game. I learned the game in the same era as you did, when the game
emphasized balance and timing. I often wish that I could have at least some of the power that some of the younger bowlers have today, but it was never meant to be.
Over the years I have had lessons with so many wonderful instructors (Bill Hall, Jowdy,
Borden, Baker, etc.) and I learned something of value from each and every one of them.
About 15 years ago, I took a few lessons from Jowdy when I was living in San Diego.
He told me something that has stuck with me. He said, unless you have exceptional talent and ability, stick with what you do best and work like heck to perfect that computer chip that Mother Nature has given just to you . He also said that whatever you do--- it should never, ever be at the expense of a good armswing because 95% of this game is, and always will be, "direction". They have been words to live by for me ever since.
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Can't let loose of all the comments about"power" in bowling. Most were that it takes "revs", "speed", "axis rotationl", "tilt". All inferring a masculine type of power.
Now, I've had the pleasure, and good luck to have bowled around some of the top women bowlers. 95% of them don't do all these power things, but they can strike all day. One thing in common they all have is the ability to use the oil, not the dry, to position their ball. Secondly, they position their ball to have the best chance of a strike(angle). Third, they control their breakpoint to be as close to the pocket as they can. Last but not least most of them have revs that match up to their speed. I would bet most of them are covering around 21" of floor for each rev. when their ball hits the pins. Combine that with the close in breakpoint they all have and you have "power.
So, power can be other things besides high revs, high speed, lots of axis rotation. It is also putting all the mechanics together in the proper way.
Bullred,
If power is all about the ball and mechanics, then why don't ALL the top women who have much more mechanically sound form and repetition then do men, beat the men on the PBA tour?
Answer, they don't have the same "power", period.
What about the two handers? They have little consistency and or repeat-ability. They generate a wide pocket because of the revolutions and power. Their mechanics are NOT good, but yet they strike "all day".
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^^^^^tommygn
Women have beaten men on tour.
I disagree about two hand bowlers on tour. They wouldn't be on tour if they sucked a little.
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^^^^^tommygn
Women have beaten men on tour.
I disagree about two hand bowlers on tour. They wouldn't be on tour if they sucked a little.
How many women have won a PBA national title in how many attempts??? 1, Kelly Kulick
Stephanie Nation, Kelly Kulick, Liz Johnson, Liz Kuhlkin, Danielle McEwan, Lynda Barnes, Clara Guerrero, just to name a few, ALL have more fundamentally sound games than Anthony Simonsen, Kyle Troup, or Shawn Maldonado, yet two of those three two handers have national PBA tour titles, and only Kelly Kulick has EVER won on the men's tour. Add to that, those three two handers I just mentioned haven't been bowling on tour for all that long.
I'm no advocate for two handed bowling, in fact I'm a traditionalist when it comes to how the game should be taught, but it's hard to argue against the numbers.
I'll take any one of those women listed above in a C.A.T.S. shoot out against any of those three two handers.
...But when it comes to stringing strikes and being able to move in deep on a lane where rev rate, axis rotation, and speed are needed, well.....
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Here's another way to look at it, do you think Jesper Svensson is more accurate or repeats shots better than Parker Bohn or Patrick Allen?
He just creates more power and rotation and a wider pocket.
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Thought this subject was to define "power" not who is the best bowler.
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Thought this subject was to define "power" not who is the best bowler.
Who's talking about who the best Bowlers are? The original poster asked about what power is. Why else would you be talking to a coach about power if not to create a wider pocket and create more strikes? You stated that women strike plenty, I simply responded on how women do not strike near as much as the higher rev, high axis tilt, high rotation players that you said does not necessarily mean what power is. I just used examples to support my hypothesis.
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The 2 handers I see on TV can repeat much better than people think
super high rev rates much like high swing speed in golf magnifies small variations in release. Only two hander who has really dominated for any length of time is belmo.
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A few years back Jason Belmonte's accuracy was tested (I believe at Kegel's facilities) and the results showed that he was extremely accurate, shot after shot---surpassing many traditional one-handers.
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Many of you people aren't old enough to remember, but we went through the same thing with the cup wristed one hand power players in the early 80's. I wont name all the strike or no count one hit wonders who nabbed PBA titles between 1980 and 1988, but it is comparable to the less talented two handers who are winning now. Strokers like myself wrung our hands and bemoaned the demise of the game.
The truly talented power players of that era continued to evolve their game. Ironically, the introduction of the resin ball did more to restore some balance to the game than any other factor. Thanks to resin, the finesse players upped their carrying percentage enough that the power guys could no longer afford to blow spares right and left while out striking us strokers by an absurd margin.
What really happened is that us strokers adapted to some degree and managed to learn stronger releases, while the power guys learned to shoot spares. Power is still an advantage, but it wont keep you at the top without some accuracy and the ability to adjust to the extreme differences in oil patterns we now have
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Very interesting....
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The two handers high speed, high rev rate release doesn't read the front of the lane, near as much as what most traditional bowlers ball does. It's much easier to create the proper axis tilt on the ball when your thumb isn't in the ball. Their ball reaction doesn't see the early hook in the heads, so their moves aren't as sudden and quick. Combine that with the fact that the high powered release and ball speed will also break up splits easier, and they aren't shooting at the designer spares as often.
Back in the day when guys like Dennis Jacques, Marshal Holman, the higher rev guys of the 80's, would over hit a ball, they payed the maximum price for the miss, that is unless they got it to cross over. You can add Bob Vespi into that category, in the early 90's. Granted, there were weeks that their ball would lay, and strike, and weeks it wouldn't. There was "next week" in an effort for all styles to have a look, and have a chance to really have the best ball reaction of that given week.
In today's game, the slicker lanes and lane oils and the even faster ball speeds with higher rev rates, don't pay the price as often for missed shots, so it becomes an illusion that they are better spare shooters, and more accurate.
When you only have so many tournaments a year to bowl, the advantage is magnified.
Kegel did a study a few years ago on lane topography, and ball speed was the biggest factor in ball reaction seeing the differences from lane to lane. Higher ball speeds, although affected, didn't show as drastic of a difference from lane to lane, as a slower ball speed bowler will. They also concluded that straighter trajectories through the front of the lane also was more beneficial. Bottom line, if you can produce a lot of speed, revs, and have a cover stock that keeps angles in front of you, you are going give yourself the best chance of maximizing your scoring potential from lane to lane, and from pair to pair.
I didn't include Belmo in the above examples of guys, as he has clearly refined hid game, and actually posts shots. But I will ask this, do you think he was really "hitting" the ball when he was being tested on C.A.T.S.? Do you think he was throwing the ball with loft and high revs and axis rotation like he does when he gets in to 6th and 7th arrow? This is when the two handers excel. They can get the ball to corner, or they can zone back right, and throw urethane, and still get it to hit.
I don't think it's the same as the power players of the 80's.
Here is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Watch how high the ball hits the pocket and strikes. That's big four for most everyone else:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEI69YFm9uo
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Interesting. I agree on the importance of speed in today's game. There are exceptions of course, but make no mistake, those who can throw with both, a combination of velocity and revs will have the advantage. I was at the Pa state tournament yesterday and
the kids who had both were carrying strikes I can only dream about, especially on the lighter hits. Back in the 60's, it was the opposite. You generally had to throw the ball slower due to the equipment, lane conditions and pins that existed in that era.
I have the velocity, but not the rev rate. I usually perform best when the lanes get a good "burn" built in. The younger guys create as much, if not more motion on the longer and higher volumes than I do on the dry.
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Interesting. I agree on the importance of speed in today's game. There are exceptions of course, but make no mistake, those who can throw with both, a combination of velocity and revs will have the advantage. I was at the Pa state tournament yesterday and
the kids who had both were carrying strikes I can only dream about, especially on the lighter hits. Back in the 60's, it was the opposite. You generally had to throw the ball slower due to the equipment, lane conditions and pins that existed in that era.
I have the velocity, but not the rev rate. I usually perform best when the lanes get a good "burn" built in. The younger guys create as much, if not more motion on the longer and higher volumes than I do on the dry.
The real shame of it is, with the strength of today's bowling balls, you think we would want to teach the youth how to bowl, more like the 50's, 60's and early 70's. Teach the importance of posting shots, and repeating shots, so that you can pursue the game for a lifetime, just as the game was intended. If one wishes to over hit the ball, so be it, but make that the exception, not the expectation. The sport seems to be on this "grow the sport" through the youth, but what happens when the youth become 45, and they quit, because their bodies won't allow them to create the proper ball speed that is needed, for the way the game is being taught. No more senior leagues, no more life long participation sport. We live in an era that a bowler COULD learn a game that they can compete at for a lifetime, without having to over hit the ball. We just need the lane conditions to be for it, not against it. As long as they keep putting more and more oil downlane, the high rev, higher speed players WILL be advantaged. Just my opinion.
I've coached youth bowling, for going on 20 years now. There isn't a flood of bowlers coming into bowl, because of the two handed bowling. There is just kids who already have been bowling, now trying to bowl two handed. The other thing is, parents are getting their kids started MUCH too young, and with TOO heavy of bowling balls, so as for the need to bowl two handed just to get the ball down the lane.
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By the way, Avabob's last post about power today vs power in the old days is absolutely correct. Many of us "straighties" benefited with the introduction of resin balls, and we continue to do so. It has given me more "hand" right out of the box. However, resin balls need to be released with a much flatter trajectory and with much softer grip pressure than the plastic and rubber balls of yesteryear in order to maximize their full potential. Also, resin balls are much more sensitive to both hand position and speed
variations . In short, today's balls can be "finnicky", especially on flatter patterns--
if you vary your release just a little. In the old days, the hook spots were much longer and shallower. This placed the emphasis more on target accuracy. Back then, small variations in release mechanics were not as critical, but your direction certainly was.
Misses to the right were pretty unforgiving back then. Misses to left, not quite as much. As the great Don Johnson once remarked (about the old days), "Back then,
a 2 board miss was considered out of bounds". He was right.
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Some good posts here.
While speed and revs can create some impressive strikes (explosions) I haven't seen it to be an advantage with single pin spares, as an example. I've said it many times here before, so before we all go out and rebuild our games, just "bowl like you do".
There's no harm in trying to maximize what you can do, consistently, just keep it within yourself. We're all built differently and are different mentally, too.
Sure, it can be intimidating watching pins fly all over the deck, but I don't have to do that. I just need to knock 10 pins over (and no one trips more 4's than I do) and then I'm even.
In fact, I've seen many a power bowler obliterate the pocket and leave a solid 9, or a blower 7, and shake his head in disbelief as I trip the 4, or better yet have a SLOW messenger tap the 10 and carry it. Advantage me...
Indeed, the power games of many younger bowlers can be a real advantage, but that's not an option for me anymore, so I don't worry that I can't excel at it. I need to learn how to manage friction and read ball reaction to maximize what I can do, and enjoy the challenge.
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About speed. The single reason speed is an advantage in todays game is due to the much higher friction between the ball and the lane. At the end of the day, the increased revs and speed that the two handers can generate will only lead them to success if they can repeat shots to the same degree as more conventional styles.
If enough people think that high revs and speed should not be rewarded to the degree it now is, then the only effective answer is to reduce the available friction either through significant taming of balls surfaces, or in finding an oil that holds up much better.