Author Topic: promoting tougher conditions? (Read 5517 times)

David Lee Yskes · « **on:** September 09, 2012, 11:48:36 AM »

I guess it's more of a curious question. Since a lot of people say they want to toughen up the lane conditions.. Not to make them super hard, but somewhere around a Kegel Challenge tough..

But i am curious as to how many people actually try to get people to bowl on tougher lane conditions? Or to get their league to bowl on a tougher lane condition??

TWOHAND834 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 09, 2012, 03:23:58 PM »

Quote from: David Lee Yskes on September 09, 2012, 11:48:36 AM

I guess it's more of a curious question. Since a lot of people say they want to toughen up the lane conditions.. Not to make them super hard, but somewhere around a Kegel Challenge tough..

But i am curious as to how many people actually try to get people to bowl on tougher lane conditions? Or to get their league to bowl on a tougher lane condition??

We can try to promote a tougher condition but the majority want easier conditions. Only about 10% of league bowlers want something tougher. I personally would like to see the ratio cut in half; from 8-10:1 down to 4:1 or 5:1. But I fall into the minority unfortunately.

David Lee Yskes · « **Reply #2 on:** September 09, 2012, 03:46:59 PM »

ok.. you say you can try... but do you actually talk to people you bowl with about it?? If so, what do they say???

I mean the typical response from people is they initially say YES, but then revert back to saying no lol....

I always try pointing out what people will gain when they are bowling on a tougher condition...

Sms11 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 09, 2012, 03:54:31 PM »

98-99 % of the bowlers DO NOT want to bowl on those conditions! But let's say if they did, there is ALOT available in the way of Sport and PBA leagues and tournaments, but they just get NO support-plain and simple!
Remember talk is CHEAP! They talk the talk but can they walk the walk? Answer is-No. Leagues aren't going to change - but if you did get them to have a meeting, how would you present it - tell the 150-160 average bowlers who are the majority that they are averaging 20-30 pins higher than you think they should be on the house pattern. Tell them it will make them a better bowler - that's not what they want. So that won't work. What do you do? You look after yourself - find the Sport and PBA events and go bowling and don't worry about the THC ( typical head cases).
The center I bowl in had a PBA league this summer and had 18 bowlers - 3 were good bowlers looking to get better and the rest just wanted to try it! They also have run a monthly sport shot tournament for the last 5 months and averaged 20 bowlers.
So what do you do - you go bowl in and on what you want to bowl on - there is more than enough options to suit everyone's needs.

David Lee Yskes · « **Reply #4 on:** September 09, 2012, 04:25:45 PM »

honestly the way i tell everyone ...

80-90% of the bowlers would not notice if the lanes are Tougher...

the 10-20% that do... you have half that will complain about it and half that will love it..

I tried telling this to the owner of the house i bowled in for the last two years.. I said 90% of your bowlers are going right up the track, and i doubt they would ever know the difference. Why?? because they throw the ball that bad.. The 10% that does notice the difference, you will have 5% that hate the change, and 5% that love the change..

And I was only talking about going from their house shot, to something like Kegel's Middle Road.. which I found to be easier than their house shot..

My other theory is, if you start out the league season with a tougher shot, most of the league bowlers ( in my area ) would not notice the difference. Why?? because they do not bowl at all during the summer..

So when they come back they will just think it's because they are rusty and have not bowled at all.. And eventually they will get use to the so called tougher shot.

Sms11 · « **Reply #5 on:** September 09, 2012, 04:41:54 PM »

Good points - I'm with you. But instead of risking the loss of 5-10% of the bowlers, which bowling can't afford right now I would leave it alone. But I am still going to bowl on the harder patterns every chance I get.

Steven · « **Reply #6 on:** September 09, 2012, 05:44:26 PM »

Quote from: David Lee Yskes on September 09, 2012, 04:25:45 PM

honestly the way i tell everyone ...

80-90% of the bowlers would not notice if the lanes are Tougher...

the 10-20% that do... you have half that will complain about it and half that will love it..

Most lower average bowl depend to some degree on the dry wall built outside the 10 board. Take that away, or diminish it, and dumped balls don't funneled toward the center. Many of the bowlers who understand and do complain might take their business elsewhere.

We can debate about this until the cows come home, but it doesn't matter. What's important is that house owners make the decisions, and they almost universally believe that bowlers generally want higher scores, and that higher scores translate to more business and more dollars. Revenue rules decisions. You can't fight City Hall on this one.

As much as I personally want tougher league conditions, I understand the proprietor's point of view, and it's not going to happen. Mixed league bowlers, in general, just want to have fun, and that means being able to pop out a good game every once in a while. A good percent of so called 'better bowlers' are big babies, so it's no win, easy or tough.

Accept reality and focus on the things you can do. Participate in sport shot tournaments when they're offered. Get your buddies to go with you. Numbers get the attention of proprietors, not talk.

Sms11 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 09, 2012, 06:07:43 PM »

Steven
Well said.

Smash49 · « **Reply #8 on:** September 10, 2012, 12:26:13 AM »

As much as I hate it, I think the people bowling with training wheels need to be left alone. The majority of the competitive bowlers of the world need to figure something out to save their sanity. Sport bowling may be one answer but not so far. Dropping handicap all together maybe another answer or setting it in someway to make the situation better. Tournaments instead of leagues. It goes back too the old saying. You think you can bowl? Well then shoe up buddy and prove it. Let those people sitting in the kitchen at the kids table alone if they are happy. But if they think they are bowlers then shoe up.

Smash49

dmonroe814 · « **Reply #9 on:** September 10, 2012, 06:22:27 AM »

I would like to see a 4:1 or 5:1 oil pattern and 80-90% of the league bowlers would not notice. A few of the better ones would, but they would learn to adjust. On the mixed league I bowl on, the individual awards are kind of a joke. It doesn't do much when you pay 2-3 places for high game and have to split it among 5-6 guys who throw 300s. House bowlers insist on the individual prizes though and won't do without them. First night of the league a woman threw the first 300, with 3 guys throwing the first 10. For myself, I am trying to keep my sanity by trying to hit a single board with each delivery and making every spare. I am truly trying to throw a 300 every game and strike with each shot. In my mind I am bowling each frame like it is strike and win or don't strike and lose.

TWOHAND834 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 10, 2012, 11:31:44 AM »

Quote from: Sms11 on September 09, 2012, 03:54:31 PM

98-99 % of the bowlers DO NOT want to bowl on those conditions! But let's say if they did, there is ALOT available in the way of Sport and PBA leagues and tournaments, but they just get NO support-plain and simple!
Remember talk is CHEAP! They talk the talk but can they walk the walk? Answer is-No. Leagues aren't going to change - but if you did get them to have a meeting, how would you present it - tell the 150-160 average bowlers who are the majority that they are averaging 20-30 pins higher than you think they should be on the house pattern. Tell them it will make them a better bowler - that's not what they want. So that won't work. What do you do? You look after yourself - find the Sport and PBA events and go bowling and don't worry about the THC ( typical head cases).
The center I bowl in had a PBA league this summer and had 18 bowlers - 3 were good bowlers looking to get better and the rest just wanted to try it! They also have run a monthly sport shot tournament for the last 5 months and averaged 20 bowlers.
So what do you do - you go bowl in and on what you want to bowl on - there is more than enough options to suit everyone's needs.

The main thing that is going to happen with tougher conditions, is not bring the 160 guy down to 130. But it will bring the 230 guy down to 210ish to make the league's lowest average and highest average closer together. The 160 guy isnt throwing a bunch of strikes anyway so they rely more on making spares. The majority of guys at 230 arent really 230 bowlers as they can hit an area and strike instead of hitting a spot and strike. Some 230 guys can hit a spot consistently but there are also alot of guys that are area bowlers on their house patterns. If you told be to hit a spot, I could honestly do it maybe 75% of the time. The other 25% I am hitting a board or two away from that spot. Thats the reason I average 230 on THS and "only" 205-210 on the USBC Tournament patterns. On the tougher conditions, unless really flat, you will bring the higher averages down moreso than the lower averages, IMO.

dR3w · « **Reply #11 on:** September 10, 2012, 11:59:25 AM »

Quote from: David Lee Yskes on September 09, 2012, 11:48:36 AM

I guess it's more of a curious question. Since a lot of people say they want to toughen up the lane conditions.. Not to make them super hard, but somewhere around a Kegel Challenge tough..

But i am curious as to how many people actually try to get people to bowl on tougher lane conditions? Or to get their league to bowl on a tougher lane condition??

In response to the Original Topic, I have been a proponent of this in my area, but it isn't popular. We have two centers, one has a Kegel oil machine the other is an AMF center with an older Wick machine. The only attempt at a sport league is one that I got started during the summer 4 years ago. It has been a both a doubles and trios league. It has about the same number of bowlers as it did when it started, but the turnover has been large. The excuses in this league run the gamut. "The shot is too dry, the PBA doesn't bowl on this little oil". "It is the summer, I don't want to bowl". "It is too difficult". "The center doesn't know what they are putting down", etc.. Out of the 30-40 bowlers in the league maybe only 4-5 of them, are among the better bowlers in town. Some of the better bowlers started in the league and gave it up when they couldn't average over 190. Some people have actually quit mid season because they couldn't score.

There were discussions in the preseason meeting for the most competitive league in the city to change the shot every 4 weeks. There are a few centers within an hour or two of our center have been doing that. Of course nobody was interested in the challenge. Part of it is that this league is at AMF and has an older oiling machine, and they can't get the shot straight for any given week, let alone change it on a month-to-month basis.

There are people in our area who talk a big game, but when it comes down to actually bowling on tougher patterns, there is virtually no interest.

Personally I like the challenge, and I know I have improved by bowling in our only challenging league, but most people aren't interested in our area.

glssmn2001 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 10, 2012, 12:31:03 PM »

I think the part that gets overlooked in all this is that fact that the nationwide average is like 160 or 170. I am not sure, just throwing a number out there. Now, I thing we can agree that most bowlers average between 160 and 190, give or take a few sticks. Most of these bowlers probably bowl once a week after working an 8-10 hour day, this part could be off, but bear with me.

Now we talk about making,asking or just wanting tougher condition and how nobody wants them. Well if you work 40 a week and average 175 bowling once a week would you not already think the conditions were tough enough ?

David Lee Yskes · « **Reply #13 on:** September 10, 2012, 02:48:14 PM »

glssmn2001

jmo, the person who averages 175 probably doesnt know if the lanes are tough or not... you could make the lanes easier for said person and he might! average 190... why??? because is spare game sucks...

Twohand said it best... It's not about lowering the John Q's average which is the 150-180 range... its about lowering the upper tier guys, who are 215 to 240...

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #14 on:** September 10, 2012, 04:02:37 PM »

Steven is 100% correct here. It couldn't have been explained any more clear than he explained it. Well said Steven.

Quote from: Steven on September 09, 2012, 05:44:26 PM

Quote from: David Lee Yskes on September 09, 2012, 04:25:45 PM
honestly the way i tell everyone ...

80-90% of the bowlers would not notice if the lanes are Tougher...

the 10-20% that do... you have half that will complain about it and half that will love it..

Most lower average bowl depend to some degree on the dry wall built outside the 10 board. Take that away, or diminish it, and dumped balls don't funneled toward the center. Many of the bowlers who understand and do complain might take their business elsewhere.

We can debate about this until the cows come home, but it doesn't matter. What's important is that house owners make the decisions, and they almost universally believe that bowlers generally want higher scores, and that higher scores translate to more business and more dollars. Revenue rules decisions. You can't fight City Hall on this one.

As much as I personally want tougher league conditions, I understand the proprietor's point of view, and it's not going to happen. Mixed league bowlers, in general, just want to have fun, and that means being able to pop out a good game every once in a while. A good percent of so called 'better bowlers' are big babies, so it's no win, easy or tough.

Accept reality and focus on the things you can do. Participate in sport shot tournaments when they're offered. Get your buddies to go with you. Numbers get the attention of proprietors, not talk.

Author Topic: promoting tougher conditions? (Read 5517 times)

David Lee Yskes

promoting tougher conditions?

TWOHAND834

Re: promoting tougher conditions?

David Lee Yskes

Re: promoting tougher conditions?

Sms11

Re: promoting tougher conditions?

David Lee Yskes

Re: promoting tougher conditions?

Sms11

Re: promoting tougher conditions?

Steven

Re: promoting tougher conditions?

Sms11

Re: promoting tougher conditions?

Smash49

Re: promoting tougher conditions?

dmonroe814

Re: promoting tougher conditions?

TWOHAND834

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dR3w

Re: promoting tougher conditions?

glssmn2001

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David Lee Yskes

Re: promoting tougher conditions?

Brickguy221

Re: promoting tougher conditions?