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Author Topic: Want people's opinion.  (Read 6708 times)

Wreckedthat30

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Want people's opinion.
« on: August 15, 2012, 09:19:02 AM »
Just curious about other bowlers thoughts on this. I made a deal for a bowling ball, both parties agreed about payment and seller said it was to late to ship the ball that day so he'd ship tomorrow first thing, I agreed. Later that evening I get a message from the seller saying he used the ball that night and it got damaged, once he gets the ball back we can redo the deal. I told him, no deal, keep the ball I no longer want it. I feel once we struck the deal that was now my ball and you shouldn't have used it. I was pretty pissed. So is it allright for a seller or trader to use the equipment once they have struck a deal?
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Spider Man

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Re: Want people's opinion.
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2012, 12:54:32 PM »
A car transaction is both similar and not... and it may confuse the basic questions in the OP.

Jorge, I agree. Some responses have illustrated that many people will go to great lengths to justify poor (or unethical) behavior. No excuse changes the fact that the "seller" acted in poor faith and violated the trust the buyer had in him.
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Spider Man

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Re: Want people's opinion.
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2012, 12:56:16 PM »
but how many bowling balls do you have? 3? 10?




Quote from: spmcgivern on August 15, 2012, 12:31:53 PM
Is this anything similar to selling a car.  I have a car to sell, but it is also my only means of transportation.  Upon selling the car (money in hand) I would then purchase another car.  Am I not allowed to drive the car up until money is in my hand? 

However, I wouldn't have used the ball; but until money has been transferred, the ball is still the original owner's.  Hopefully the original owner would have disclosed any changes to the original sale conditions (extra games) but I have my doubts.
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Good Times Good Times

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Re: Want people's opinion.
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2012, 01:11:19 PM »
Quote from: Spider Man on August 15, 2012, 12:54:32 PM
A car transaction is both similar and not... and it may confuse the basic questions in the OP.

Jorge, I agree. Some responses have illustrated that many people will go to great lengths to justify poor (or unethical) behavior. No excuse changes the fact that the "seller" acted in poor faith and violated the trust the buyer had in him.

My attempt, and i'd argue SpcMcG's isn't to justify the sellers behavior, but rather to illustrate where the property exchange occurs.  When the piece is still the property of the original owner he is entitled to use it ("deal" pending or not).  This is a fact, not an excuse.

What i'd also add is that if I were the OP's seller, I wouldn't personally have chosen to do that (throw the ball and expose it to potential wear and tear / damage).

Goodness people.....
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GTx2

charlest

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Re: Want people's opinion.
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2012, 01:31:20 PM »
Quote from: Wreckedthat30 on August 15, 2012, 11:36:58 AM
In my case the ball was paid for already, but I also got my money back. I'm asking for your opinion if you make a deal with someone to buy, sell or trade once you strike a deal should the equipment still be used or put aside

Once you've paid for the ball, the seller should definitely not use it.

However shipping being what it is, the ball is not yours until it's in your hands. Even if you've paid for it, if something goes wrong, most shippers will not deal with the buyer, only with the seller who does the actual shipping. So, if UPS, FEDEX or USPS screw up the shipment, it's the seller who gets paid, not the buyer. The buyer gets refunded by the seller when the shipping company makes good on the insurance claim.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

bcw1969

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Re: Want people's opinion.
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2012, 01:53:16 PM »
My question seems to be that if the seller is willing to sell a ball, I assume it is because he either doesn't need it anymore or want it anymore for whatever reason......why would he even be using it one night. I mean if he doesn't have anything else in his bag that is the right ball for that bowling outing, why even sell the ball in the first place? if he does have something else he could have used effectively, than why even use the ball he was going to sell?

Brad
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Good Times Good Times

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Re: Want people's opinion.
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2012, 02:00:54 PM »
Quote from: Wreckedthat30 on August 15, 2012, 11:36:58 AM
In my case the ball was paid for already, but I also got my money back. I'm asking for your opinion if you make a deal with someone to buy, sell or trade once you strike a deal should the equipment still be used or put aside

Once he received payment, that ball was YOUR property.  What he did was wrong since he received payment.

Giving you money back was a nice gesture but i'd NEVER do business with this person again, and i'd probably share his name and give him a bad seller review.

That's just me.
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GTx2

Jorge300

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Re: Want people's opinion.
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2012, 02:13:27 PM »
GTGT and spcm,
    If you want to equate this to a car sale, than I want the same ability I have in a car sale. In a car sale, I can take the car (or bring one with me) to a mechanic to review the true state of the car, i.e how the engine is holding up, how the brakes are, the wear on the tires, etc. Then I want the ball to take to a Pro Shop to have checked out, looked at under that product to view the surface, etc to prove to me the ball is as was advertised. Oh wait, can't do that can you....would either of you ever buy a car without seeing it first, without inspecting it first? I doubt it.
 
In the case of a bowling ball, the seller is advertising the ball in a certain condition, number of games, etc. Any use of the ball once the ad is placed, changes those conditions. If the seller does not update his ad, than basically he is selling the item under false pretenses. It may have double or triple the number of games on it over what was stated. And, in terms of bowling balls that makes a difference. Would either of you pay the same price for a ball with 60-70 games on it as you would for one with 20-30? I think not.
 
Bottomline is, once a ball is placed "For Sale" and the ad is published stating the condition of the ball, any use of that ball, without updating the ad, is unethical. You are basically lying to anyone who trys or does buy that ball. People complain all the time about how people want to buy used balls for next to nothing, don't want to pay a fair price, yet I bet they would have no objections to what this seller did. Why would you expect buyers to pay a "fair" price when you as a seller aren't giving them a "fair" deal?
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Jorge300

trash heap

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Re: Want people's opinion.
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2012, 02:17:07 PM »
Quote from: Wreckedthat30 on August 15, 2012, 11:36:58 AM
In my case the ball was paid for already, but I also got my money back. I'm asking for your opinion if you make a deal with someone to buy, sell or trade once you strike a deal should the equipment still be used or put aside

Put aside.
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Talkin' Trash!

Good Times Good Times

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Re: Want people's opinion.
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2012, 02:18:22 PM »
Quote from: Jorge300 on August 15, 2012, 02:13:27 PM
Bottomline is, once a ball is placed "For Sale" and the ad is published stating the condition of the ball, any use of that ball, without updating the ad, is unethical.

My point is, if you and I struck a deal on a ball (BEFORE payment), I would let you know of ANY use of MY PROPERTY BEFORE accepting payment, so you would be fully informed.

In OP's case, payment WAS sent, therefore the seller acted unethically by throwing the BUYER'S (and current owners) PROPERTY.  He did refund money, but what he did was still wrong, as the ball was not his.  The OP got a nice break in life by getting the refund.
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GTx2

Jorge300

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Re: Want people's opinion.
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2012, 02:30:35 PM »
GTGT,
    As I said, "any use without updating the ad"...in your statement informing the buyer of a change in condition would qualify as updating and I have no issues with that. But failure to do so, which I would bet is the case the majority of the time is unethical.
 
My post was more to refute your one relating this to the sale of a car and to show how it is much different. I think we are closer to agreement than disagreement, I just feel a little stronger about it.  :)
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Jorge300

Good Times Good Times

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Re: Want people's opinion.
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2012, 02:34:16 PM »
Quote from: Jorge300 on August 15, 2012, 02:30:35 PM
GTGT,
    As I said, "any use without updating the ad"...in your statement informing the buyer of a change in condition would qualify as updating and I have no issues with that. But failure to do so, which I would bet is the case the majority of the time is unethical.
 
My post was more to refute your one relating this to the sale of a car and to show how it is much different. I think we are closer to agreement than disagreement, I just feel a little stronger about it.  :)

As always, you are fair Jorge.  We are of the same mindset generally.   :)
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GTx2

spmcgivern

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Re: Want people's opinion.
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2012, 04:03:49 PM »
I don't want to dispute what Jorge or GTGT have stated pertaining to a car sale since I agree completely.

But Jorge, in response to the stated condition of the bowling ball, I don't remember seeing the condition of the ball in any of the posts.  Just for argument's sake, I don't know the exact number of games on all of my bowling balls.  I am sure I can guess within 10 games.  I just don't count the games.  Does 3 more games mean a lot if i said it had 50 games and in reality it had 40? 

But even if I did know, the condition of the ball is still dependent on more than just the number of games.  How was it taken care of?  Did the seller bowl on a flood or really dry lanes?  Are they wood or synthetic? Well cared for center or dungeon?  I only want to show there are many things that can determine the "condition" of the ball.

I realize this is a different scenario and I was just trying to point to another situation where property isn't transferred until payment is made.  Maybe a car sale wasn't the best example.
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Jorge300

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Re: Want people's opinion.
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2012, 04:48:05 PM »
spmc,
   First off, let me apologize as I got your name incorrect in my earlier post, sorry about that.
 
Now, I agree with you 100%, there are many factors. The biggest is going to be if the seller cleaned and took care of the ball correctly. And true I don't know if the seller mentioned the number of games or not, some do, some don't. But while 3 games might not make a difference, there is no way to know how many games a seller could theoretically put on a ball while it was waiting to be sold. In this case, we only know of 3 for sure because the ball was damaged, but it could have been 6, or 12 and the seller never mentioned it because the ball came back fine. What if a seller puts an ad up in June, and doesn't sell the ball till August....how many games might have been added in that time? In the past it wasn't an issue, but with the modern coverstocks and how quickly some of them die, it has become a big issue.
 
As I stated, and my opinion isn't right or wrong it just is, I feel it is unethical to continue to use a ball you are trying to sell unless you inform the buyer specifically that or update your ad to show that so that the buyer knows what he is getting. Otherwise you are basically lying to the buyer, IMHO.
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Jorge300

Long Gone Daddy

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Re: Want people's opinion.
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2012, 09:45:49 PM »
There is a title that must be signed over when selling a car.  Until the title exchanges hands, original owner can do what he wants with said car.  Now if he's smart, he parks it.  Bowling ball, no title, no honor, no deal until ball is in hands of buyer and his check has cleared.  This is why I will never buy a used ball from some guy on the internet.....have to rely on the integrity of somebody you don't know.  No legal document to assure recourse if deal goes sour.  These are the risks in internet dealing yet we are subject to post after post with some guy caterwauling about a ball deal gone south.  You knew the risks.  Deal with them.  Besides, what do you think our opinions about the seller are going to do?  I just don't get it.


   :oBowling
Quote from: spmcgivern on August 15, 2012, 12:31:53 PM
Is this anything similar to selling a car.  I have a car to sell, but it is also my only means of transportation.  Upon selling the car (money in hand) I would then purchase another car.  Am I not allowed to drive the car up until money is in my hand? 

However, I wouldn't have used the ball; but until money has been transferred, the ball is still the original owner's.  Hopefully the original owner would have disclosed any changes to the original sale conditions (extra games) but I have my doubts.
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Long Gone also posts the honest truth which is why i respect him. He posts these things knowing some may not like it.

Mainzer

kidlost2000

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Re: Want people's opinion.
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2012, 10:27:11 PM »
The person can use the ball if they like, but at the risk of it being damaged and them losing the sale of course. Me personally, no I wouldn't. If you like the ball the much, don't sell it to begin with.

I agree that when the item is sold, do the right thing, box it, get it ready to ship and be done. The world is full of people who don't do the right thing for many reasons.
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…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.
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