Post by: JOE FALCO on January 16, 2012, 08:03:06 AM
I know that there will be some of you that will come back with "everything is higher now" but I have to ask this .. do you really think that prices are jumping so fast that the new TABOO is worth $165 un-drilled? My thoughts are if this becomes a big seller that the companies will take it to mean that bowlers will pay what ever we ask! How much is TOO MUCH?
Post by: WaltMisser on January 16, 2012, 06:06:58 PM
Personally, I just can not fathom paying high prices for equipment that does not last. The public in general typically falls victim to marketing strategies. Ball manufacturers can & will set prices, but only if the public allows it. Likewise, it is not uncommon for the public to want something for nothing. A "win - win" relationship always works best for all.
Post by: badbeard on January 16, 2012, 08:01:14 PM
Post by: JOE FALCO on January 16, 2012, 09:16:55 PM
I understand about the fix started by Ebonite to help the B&M guys .. but are the new balls worth the price set by the companies? Do you think this is a feeler by the companies to see how much they can ask? Remember the prices started by Lane 1 .. are they headed for that range?
Post by: Track_Fanatic on January 16, 2012, 09:35:25 PM
The cost of material to make a bowling ball is not cheap. Plus, the Big B Quantum's started this mess and then the small E(not Ebo) came along and did the same thing. At least the Big B has equipment that is comparative pricing to other Major manufacturers. I don't consider the other letter a major manufacturer. I remember when they came out. Didn't they sell you a ball but then get a competitors ball along with it so you can compare?
Post by: Djarum on January 17, 2012, 07:44:19 AM
I think we forget that this is a hobby, and like many hobbies, it is for people who have expendable income. I'm bowling with 5+ year old equipment and still maintain a 200 average. The last ball I purchased sat in a closet because it hooked to much unless on sport shots, and finally cracked all the way around. I could buy 10 balls today and probably only one ball would actually fit my needs. I think there are too many balls for drillers to keep up with and some of them, even the good ones, can't get the right ball in the bowlers hands.
So, is there any tread left on the tires? Or at this point would it be like throwing a hot dog down a hallway? - Stewie Griffin
Post by: JOE FALCO on January 17, 2012, 08:37:08 AM
Yes I agree this is a SPORT .. but aren't manufacturers putting prices on these balls as if they are selling to PRO'S? Are there that many League bowlers that have $200 expandable income to buy more then one ball a year? Once you drill holes in the ball you cant re-sell an error ball for a 1/4 of the original cost .. talk about killing bowling .. where's all this headed for?
Post by: Cobalt Bomb on January 17, 2012, 08:53:33 AM
Until people stop buying the new balls, prices will keep going up. Bowling balls are no different than anything else. Looking at this another way though, the price of a White Dot out the door has actually gone down over the years; I distintly remember paying 90+ for a drilled White dot in the late 70's. Is that any different than today's top balls (adjusted for inflation)?
Edited by Cobalt Bomb on 1/17/2012 at 9:55 AM
Post by: dizzyfugu on January 17, 2012, 08:56:27 AM
Manufacturers and pro shops get the money, after all. Personally, I consider bowling balls being way overpriced - but we have prices being about 1.5 times higher than in the USA - a high end piece comes in at about EUR 200,- (sometimes even more), plus drilling (say EUR 50,- for a full job with inserts, no measures), which adds up to $300+ for just a plastic orb. Does that sound... sane?
Anyway, that's what the market obviously yields, even though I personally try to shoot down cheaper NIB pieces on occasions, saving up to 75% of the money... Nevertheless, I cannot hurt bowlers enough since you frequently see the "ball of the month" in league or tournaments.
My ball driller once mentioned with an ironic undertone that "whoever plays bowling cannot be poor", and unfortunately I admit he's correct (concerning equipment, but also lane fees). So, "How much is too much?". There's surely still some space left for margins, and it surely has not hurt enough yet.
DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
2010/11 Benrather BC Club Champion
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section
2010/11 Benrather BC Club Champion
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section
Post by: completebowler on January 17, 2012, 09:11:10 AM
So don't buy the top end newest release. It really isn't hard to grasp Joe. The newest, biggest, baddest release balls are out there for a niche market. That market is aimed at high end competitive bowlers that will pay for their equipment by winning tournaments, sweepers, and jackpots. Also, your 1/4 resale number is inaccurate. Most top end balls that are not beat to shit will bring $100-$125 in resale value. Thats almost half.
But my point is this. I have NIB top end stuff from 1-2 years ago sitting on the shelf at my shop for $175 drilled. Grips/slugs included. Good stuff that strikes for days. Also, I have balls like the Freeze, Nomads, Eruption/Outburst, etc., etc. that are parts balls from earlier HP stuff and are plenty good for the "average" bowler you are referring to.
So, at the end of the day it is the consumer that drives the market Joe. I once spent $275 on the Jade Quantum back in the late '90's. I had to have THAT ball. That was almost 15 years ago. I don't see balls retailing at $275 anymore. Do you? So how is the market out of control as you would like to repeatedly imply in many of your posts here?
ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI
Post by: Djarum on January 17, 2012, 09:14:31 AM
Again, it's not any different than any other hobby or recreational sport. Getting into golf can cost some coin too. Anyone into RC cars? Get's expensive fast.
The casual league bowler IMHO doesn't need a ball every year. I think most league bowlers who bowl one or two leagues a year really only needs two MAYBE three balls plus a spare ball. Those three balls don't all have to be replaced every year, either. I also think that much of the mid-priced equipment today performs much better than the mid-priced equipment before, or at least closer to what the high end stuff does.
Many people have dropped bowling because they don't have the extra income to do it. I'm not seeing a huge difference in ball prices than I was from 5 years ago. Lineage on the other hand has seemed, locally at least, to gone up significantly over the last 5 years.
I purchased my first high end ball in 1999. It was a track TKO. It cost 180 drilled back then. Accounting for inflation, thats about 220-230 today. Thats about what the proshop around here is selling the high end stuff for.
Post by: completebowler on January 17, 2012, 09:29:14 AM
Very accurate assesment DJ. Lineage, and the other costs in a bowling center have exploded. Beers are $3-3.50 at most centers around here. Lineage is $2.50-$4.
So if I go and bowl 3 games of practice and have 2 beers at the same time I probably just spent around $15 on the low end.
Now some will say, "well I go when the center is slow and bowl for the special rates". Ok, cool. Then buy your bowling balls on special....pretty simple. Don't go bowling at the peak times. And don't buy the newest ball out the day it is released.
ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI
Post by: JOE FALCO on January 17, 2012, 09:47:25 AM
So from the Seller of bowling balls we hear that the prices are right .. that's similar to asking a staff member what he thinks of one of his company balls .. it's all getting crazy and bowling ball prices will continue to sky rocket as a result .. so be it .. I bought one ball in 2011 .. and it looks like I MIGHT do that again in 2012 .. I bought 10 in 2010 .. how many others did the same?
Post by: Sunshine n Lollipops on January 17, 2012, 09:57:47 AM
Holy crap! This again? Really, Joe? Don't buy the ball if you think it is too much money. It can't get any simpler than that. Every manufacturer has a mid-priced range of balls that are more than enough to handle most conditions and suit most bowlers. How much is too much? When people don't buy them.
Golf clubs cost the same as they did a few years ago? Gasoline? Cars? Food? Clothes? Why do you insist on opening up this ridiculous argument every year? The market sets the price. A ball doesn't move, the seller will lower the price. The manufacturer will offer rebates. Guys will pay the price for the new mega uber ball if they think it can help them win money. Often the ball pays for itself many times over in a short period of time. I don't get the feeling you are in that class of bowler hence these balls are not made or priced for you.
Don't believe in the Uzi, it just went off in my hand. I, I believe in love.
Post by: TWOHAND834 on January 17, 2012, 10:20:16 AM
Personally, unless you are a BIG tournament bowler (bowling 2-3 tournaments a month) where you may see heavier volumes, why even buy the higher end stuff? In most cases, balls like the Benchmark, Arson, Victory Roads, 500-700 series balls, are plenty for house shots. Most centers will not lay down 75 units in the heads (as they have done at Nationals) nor will they go 45 feet with the pattern to accomodate the higher end stuff. We have hit that point where where we are getting into to much hook for the volume of oil we are seeing from most centers.
I bowled a tournament 2 weeks ago and we bowled on the 50mL Kegel Middle of Road Pattern. I watch guys bringing in 6 balls, 4 of which are high end, one a step below and a spare ball. They barely shoot even and even under for the tournament and then the guys that finished on top, myself included, were throwing stuff that matched up way better on the pattern. 10 game marathon, I shot 741 for the first 3 and 730 for the last 3 and I used an Ebonite Tornado for about 8.5 out of those 10 games. The winner started with the B/S Taboo in the beginning and then stepped WAY DOWN to a Backlash for the last game or two. Meanwhile, we are watching everyone else around us struggle because they cant figure out why the Nexuses, Nanos, 900 series balls are hooking out the building.
Everything in this world is customer driven. If we continue to pay top dollar for stuff, the manufacturers will continue to drive prices up. Once that stops, then the manufacturers will have to adjust. It is like gas prices. Gas prices will continue to go up if we keep paying. Once we start carpooling and the demand goes down, then so do the prices.
Peace doesnt always have to be silent.
Post by: trash heap on January 17, 2012, 12:01:45 PM
I paid $210 for a Cuda/C 16 years ago. That included drilling and grips. $165 doesn't seem too much higher in today's market. It's no different than any other product out there like computers and TVs. You want top of line, well then you are going to pay. The question is ... do you really need top of the line?
Post by: ToiletLogCore on January 17, 2012, 01:36:34 PM
Joe, look at the price of a high end ball back in 2000, 1995, 1990 even. Look at the price of just about anything else in those years.
Apparently to all you cheapskates on here, bowling is the only industry that shouldn't be adjusted for inflation. Honestly, look at any other sport. The BEST drivers were $200 10-15 years ago. They are now $400-500. A great putter was $60, now $180 easily.
Yet the top of the line bowling balls $210 back that $210-220 now. But that's outrageous.
You paid $0.89 a gallon 15 years ago for gas, you pay $3.50ish now.
Yup you are correct Joe, bowling ball prices are insanely high, even though they haven't moved in 15 years. Hmm I wonder why the bowling industry is struggling.
You've just been handed a little TLC
Post by: slowmo44 on January 17, 2012, 02:18:32 PM
I have actually seen the prices go down in the Metro Detroit area since the Ebo started the Manufacturer's Minimum pricing for online retailers. I am not sure if this policy is the reason for the price drops, but consider that, a year or so ago, balls were always 200-210 at the pro shop. People getting better prices were mainly the Pro Shop's regular customers. Now, I can tell you three shops off the top of my head selling Rotogrip Defiants (just released last week) for 185.00 (or less) out the door, including grips and thumb slug. It doesn't take long for you to realize you might as well go to the Pro Shop, rather than pay 154.99 on line, plus shipping, and then pay someone to drill it.
Everybody has to make a living...
Post by: JOE FALCO on January 17, 2012, 04:17:48 PM
Yes i spoke up when the bowling balls went from $135 to $150 now they are jumping again and I spoke out .. I guess most of you are accepting that ball manufacturers are justified in these prices I'm sure that they love the responses written on here .. yes it's OK keep kicking me I know you deserve the increases .. sounds like when Unions first came in .. let's help the worker .. OPPS there is no more company for the worker to earn those big bucks .. opps there's no more bowling to make big bucks .. if you guys think it's justified it's OK with me .. I'll just do what I've done for the last year and watch what develops .. Thanks for all the comments ..
Post by: kidlost2000 on January 17, 2012, 04:34:02 PM
Dont buy it. Online I remember when new high performance balls were released and were $119, then $125 then $129 ect ect they keep going up.
If you don't want to spend that price for it wait a few months. It will drop. That is my theory.
"1 of 1."
Post by: completebowler on January 17, 2012, 06:38:12 PM
So you post a topic asking for opinions then question the motivation of someone who is highly informed in the industry? Yet most of the other posters are telling you the same thing. It really is stupid Joe. Every 6 onths you're on here with the same b.s.
What you do here is the same as bitching about the price of the newest Cadillac. You want that car because it's nice. But you could get something cheaper that will do the job. You could get the same model Cadillac in a month or two for a much cheaper price. But you bitch and complain because you want what you want at your price.
Sorry Joe...the world don't work that way.
And the worst thing about your tired old argument is the fact that bowling ball prices (which are an absolute luxury) have gone up at a much, much, slower pace then almost everything else in life that you spend money on. You know, like necessities?
ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI
Post by: JOE FALCO on January 17, 2012, 07:17:30 PM
I did thank everyone for their comments .. I also commented that you were in the business of selling bowling balls and thought you might be biased .. however if that comment was out of line I APOLOGIZE to you. I was attempting to get opinions from league bowlers .. and the few that responded do feel that prices are in line with the economy .. good luck to all ..THANK EVERYONE FOR THEIR COMMENTS!
Post by: completebowler on January 17, 2012, 07:52:58 PM
Kid, some of the reason for that was because the online dealers were selling at a lower profit margin back then in order to carve out a share of the market. Now, as more and more people traffic their sites they don't have to sell at quite so deep a discount. And EBI and Storm have helped back up the brick and mortar shops with their policies.
ALL STAR BOWLING & TROPHY
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI
LANGAN'S ALL STAR LANES
IBPSIA MEMBER
WALLED LAKE MI
Post by: Djarum on January 18, 2012, 09:28:10 AM
I don't buy balls online, so I don't know what they were going for just a few years ago. The high end storm line my shop is selling is 239/249 drilled. I got an Attitude shift a few years ago and it was 229 drilled. So prices seem right to me. In all honesty, with petroleum prices, I'm really not suprised that equipment isn't close to 300 dollars yet, drilled.
So, is there any tread left on the tires? Or at this point would it be like throwing a hot dog down a hallway? - Stewie Griffin
Post by: Jorge300 on January 18, 2012, 10:16:07 AM
Joe,
I don't know you, and haven't really responded to you in the past. But I have a few comments:
First, why do you bring this topic up again and again and again? Every few months you trot this out looking for responses, then when you get them, and they aren't what you are looking for, you sulk away and never respond anymore. I'm not sure how old you are, but it is time to grow up a little.
Second, why do you refuse to acknowledge the legitimate question that has been asked of you many times in the past and in this thread? All things in life have increased in price over the last xx years. Do you go to websites for automobiles and ask the same questions as you do here? What about gasoline prices? Golf equipment? Milk? etc. Inflation is a real thing, prices rise over time. Everytime someone points out that bowling ball prices have either stayed static or have risen at a much much slower pace then everything else, you ignore it.
Third, do you think that the answers will change the next time you bring this up? Everytime you try to recruit people to say the "Prices are too high" you get the same feedback. They are in line with the prices people are expecting based on inflation and the natural rise in prices. Then off you go to your seclusion until you bring it up again. I think it was Einstein who said the definition of insanity is repeating the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.
And lastly, you even mentioned it yourself. People don't get full market value for balls when they try to sell them, even with very few games on it. Even though you missed the mark on how much they can sell them for. So why not wait for one of the people you are complaining about to buy the ball, find out they don't like it and sell it for "1/4" of the price, then you can get it really really cheap?
JMHO
Jorge300
Edited by Jorge300 on 1/18/2012 at 11:17 AM
Post by: JOE FALCO on January 18, 2012, 11:30:27 AM
Jorge .. YOU are right the increase in bowling ball prices are completely acceptable .. he fact that you can't pay less then the manufacturers state is completely acceptable .. you are right .. I hope the world reads this .. Joe Falco is completely wrong and Jorge is completely correct .. stupid Joe keeps bringing this subject up whenever the price increases .. he's too stupid to realize that it's acceptable when gas prices are also sky rocketing .. can't Joe see the relationship of gas to bowling balls .. how stupid can a guy be .. Thanks Jorge you are completely right and I agree with every thing you say ..is that acceptable???
Post by: ToiletLogCore on January 18, 2012, 11:39:33 AM
"Second, why do you refuse to acknowledge the legitimate question that has been asked of you many times in the past and in this thread? All things in life have increased in price over the last xx years. Do you go to websites for automobiles and ask the same questions as you do here? What about gasoline prices? Golf equipment? Milk? etc. Inflation is a real thing, prices rise over time. Everytime someone points out that bowling ball prices have either stayed static or have risen at a much much slower pace then everything else, you ignore it. "
Joe, why is it, that when even called out regarding this simple question that everyone has asked you over and over, you still go on to ignore it?
Answer this one question for everyone and maybe everyone will get off your back.
You've just been handed a little TLC
Post by: Jorge300 on January 18, 2012, 12:40:19 PM
Joe,
What is your problem man? Are you 12? Is it acceptable that prices increase, it is inevitable. Have you ever heard of inflation? You should consider yourself lucky that you live in the US and not somewhere else. The US Inflation rate is like 2-3%, in other countries it is like 15-20%. What would you do if the price of milk went up 20% every year, the price of clothes, the price of bowling balls? I think your head would explode.
Why won't you address the question at the heart of this debate? That bowling ball prices have not gone up as much or as quickly as other items. Why, cause then you wouldn't have anything to complain about. You remind me of my father before he passed away, he was never happy unless he was complaining about something.
Jorge300
Post by: Sunshine n Lollipops on January 18, 2012, 01:08:10 PM
Joe is an elderly gentleman who is retired. His bowling is done is Senior leagues. He has mentioned this many times in previous posts.
Don't believe in the Uzi, it just went off in my hand. I, I believe in love.
Post by: Juggernaut on January 18, 2012, 02:01:09 PM
Joe Falco,
Please Joe, just stop.
Nothing you could ever say, or do, would/could remove all, or any, of the biases and opinions you will run into on this site. For you to continue down this destructive path, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER YOU HAVE A POINT OR NOT, only serves to punish you more for having had an opinion.
The manufacturers have served technology upon an unwitting, and willing, public. They have supplied the unpracticed and lesser talented bowlers the technological means to "keep up" with the more skilled and talented bowlers, but have then quietly continued to raise prices because, after all, research and development costs money, money happily supplied by the willing, weak, and unskilled. There are FAR more of them than not.
In a society where majority rules, it is sad when the majority is either duped into believing falsehoods, or unskilled and lacadaisical enough to be complacently compliant with whatever the manufacturers line up to feed them next, and willing to pay whatever price is asked, all just to be able to "level a playing field" that should never have been levelled in the first place.
Bowling balls ARE too high, but that is because bowling balls are FAR TOO TECHNICALLY ADVANCED, and they got that way because FAR too many people would rather rely on technology to help make up a difference in scoring levels that their true abilities never would have let them reach.
I have found that the people who buy, use, love, and justify these things are usually in the majority.
Yea, I wish EVERYBODY had to use a yellow-dot, or maybe even a Manhattan Rubber. If we did, balls sure wouldn't cost $250, and scores WOULD be based on who could repeat a very small skillset the best.
That won't EVER happen, because "THEY" won't let it.
So, just stop it Joe.
Just stop.
Post by: Jorge300 on January 18, 2012, 02:51:00 PM
Juggernaut,
Do you also wish people still lived in caves, used torches for light, dressed in animal skins, and walked everywhere we went??
Since when is technology a bad thing? Why should bowling ball manufacturers be scolded for increasing the technology when we applaud it for everything else? These are the same points I was making to Joe. You can't look at bowling in a vacuum. It is part of a larger spectrum. Our world has inflation, prices go up. Our world has technology and things improve. Why should only bowling be stuck back in the dark ages?
Do I wish I could pay $100 for the newest ball, yes, who wouldn't. But that's not realistic. I am not some ball whore who buys all the latest and greatest. I buy 1 maybe 2 a year.....in a bad year (or good year depending on how you look at it) I might buy 3 total. Usually, they are to replace a ball that has finally worn out, or I find a new ball that fits into a hole in my arsenal where there wasn't a ball to fit it before. As has been pointed out many, many, many times....bowling ball prices have gone up only slightly over where they were 10 or 15 years ago for the high end equipment. A far less of an increase then almost anything else in society. So what is the complaint?
Just to show you my point, I went to the US Inflation Calculator, If a bowling ball cost $150 in 1990, that same ball would cost $260 today. If it was 1995, that $150 ball would now cost $223. And if it was 2000, that $150 ball would now cost $197. So if a high end ball now costs $165, we are at least $30 cheaper then where it should be if prices just followed inflation.....so again what is there to complain about??? C'mon Man.
Jorge300
Post by: Juggernaut on January 19, 2012, 11:01:23 PM
Q: "Juggernaut,
Do you also wish people still lived in caves, used torches for light, dressed in animal skins, and walked everywhere we went??"
A: No Jorge, that would be stupid, and is really an asinine and childish question that was probably meant in a demeaning manner. Don't be childish and ridiculous.
Q: Since when is technology a bad thing?
A: It is only a bad thing when it is overused and abused for all the wrong reasons.
Q: Why should bowling ball manufacturers be scolded for increasing the technology when we applaud it for everything else?
A: "WE" don't applaud it for "everything" else. Technology gave us nuclear fission, which gave us nuclear power plants, and that was great. Problem is, it also gave us the atom bomb, and that was bad. Technology also gave us the internal combustion engine, which made the automobile and modern travel a viable reality, but it also gave us atmospheric pollution levels never seen before, and that was bad. MORE IS NOT ALWAYS BETTER!
"These are the same points I was making to Joe. You can't look at bowling in a vacuum. It is part of a larger spectrum. Our world has inflation, prices go up. Our world has technology and things improve."
REPLY: Jorge, it is only your OPINION that technology has "improved" bowling. Not everyone agrees.
Q:Why should only bowling be stuck back in the dark ages?
A: What you refer to as "the dark ages", I refer to as the time period that bowling enjoyed it highest membership rates and its highest participation rates. Perhaps the fact that it was a simple sport that could be learned and perfected as a craft contributed to that. Perhaps the fact that it was percieved as a "fair and equitable" SPORT based solely on a players skill level that contributed to that popularity. Maybe that's why it should be "stuck" in its most popular format ever.
"Do I wish I could pay $100 for the newest ball, yes, who wouldn't. But that's not realistic."
REPLY: This much I agree with.
"I am not some ball whore who buys all the latest and greatest. I buy 1 maybe 2 a year.....in a bad year (or good year depending on how you look at it) I might buy 3 total. Usually, they are to replace a ball that has finally worn out, or I find a new ball that fits into a hole in my arsenal where there wasn't a ball to fit it before. As has been pointed out many, many, many times....bowling ball prices have gone up only slightly over where they were 10 or 15 years ago for the high end equipment. A far less of an increase then almost anything else in society. So what is the complaint?"
REPLY: The "complaint" is that these price increases have been falsely foisted upon us by the very people I blame for the flooding of the market by using deceptive sales tactics and purposefully sidestepping ABC/USBC standards with technological advances that they KNEW were circumventing the system, then telling us the price increases were because of the technoloical advancements themselves.
Inflation I understand. Lies, false marketing, and blatantly thumbing your noses at the governing body's rule book in order to create an artificial market and pad your wallet are the things I do not understand.
"Just to show you my point, I went to the US Inflation Calculator, If a bowling ball cost $150 in 1990, that same ball would cost $260 today. If it was 1995, that $150 ball would now cost $223. And if it was 2000, that $150 ball would now cost $197. So if a high end ball now costs $165, we are at least $30 cheaper then where it should be if prices just followed inflation.....so again what is there to complain about??? C'mon Man."
REPLY: Again, my complaint is NOT with inflation, it is with the manufacturers themselves who have created an artificially inflated market by lying and duping an unwitting and willing public into believing they NEED every ball that comes out, and the owners/proprietors who have done nothing but continually increase oil volumes in order to compensate for the technologically advanced balls that we really never needed in the first place. Bowling had a stage at which it was "perfect" and, just like having too much salt in your food, having too much technology in bowling has made it much less palatable.
_______________________________________________________________________
"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein
_______________________________________________________________________
"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein
_______________________________________________________________________
Edited by Juggernaut on 1/20/2012 at 0:03 AM
Post by: Sunshine n Lollipops on January 20, 2012, 05:42:45 AM
C'mon, Juggsy. Ball manufacturers "duping" the public into thinking they need their new product? How is that any different than any marketing dept. of any company doing the same thing? What do you think every television commercial, radio ad, newspaper and magazine ad, pop-up ads on the internet are designed to do? Most of the American buying public can and does resist that. I sure hope you're not walking around with the latest IPhone, juggsy. That would tell me you succombed to the latest Apple spiel.
As far as whether people need the new stuff or not is up to them. As Carmen Salvino says in the Nexxus P+R video, "this ball will allow amateurs to play the lanes like a pro". Now, do you really think any bowler who is any good is going to believe that? I hope not.
You and Falco are almost as reliable as Ground Hog Day with your annual rants. Joe rails against what he feels are too high ball prices and you come on to complain that you haven't been able to adjust your game to take advantage of the new equipment. I don't get that. There are weak shell reactive balls, urethane balls with real cores in them, and more than enough old urethanes with pancakes in them to suit just about any bowler that cannot adjust to what must be done with the new reactives. What is the problem?
Don't believe in the Uzi, it just went off in my hand. I, I believe in love.
Post by: kidlost2000 on January 20, 2012, 06:30:38 AM
Ball prices aren't that bad. Im not big on $159 for HP(online) bowling balls but considering that they really aren't needed I can get away with the super aggressive or less aggressive stuff that is $130 or less
Example the DV8 Reckless I got a little while back. Wow way way stronger then expected. Got the Too Reckless and guess what.....still a very very strong ball. $115.
With the high end technology on covers it will trickle down to the lower price range equipment withen a year. Like a car, don't be sold on the brand new and you will find some great deals on what ever style bowling ball you need.
Don't but the hype unless you want to pay for it,
"1 of 1."
Edited by kidlost2000 on 1/21/2012 at 12:52 PM
Post by: Juggernaut on January 21, 2012, 11:26:01 AM
Q: C'mon, Juggsy. Ball manufacturers "duping" the public into thinking they need their new product?
A: "No one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people. People can easily be persuaded to accept the most inferior ideas or useless products." H.L. Mencken.
All it takes is convincing them it is a good thing, or finding something that helps a great majority lie to themselves and convince themselves they are "special" or "elite", which is EXACTLY what they have done.
Q: How is that any different than any marketing dept. of any company doing the same thing? What do you think every television commercial, radio ad, newspaper and magazine ad, pop-up ads on the internet are designed to do?
A: SADLY, I agree with this statement. It doesn't make it the proper thing to do, yet does explain what they are designed to do.
"Most of the American buying public can and does resist that. I sure hope you're not walking around with the latest IPhone, juggsy. That would tell me you succombed to the latest Apple spiel."
REPLY: I can resist, often have, and often do. And my phone is a several years old LG-VX8560 that does, let me see, oh yea, it makes PHONE CALLS. I also am throwing a "CLAW" Hammer from 2002, and have an undrilled Nitro/R and A.M.F. XS in the closet.
"As far as whether people need the new stuff or not is up to them. As Carmen Salvino says in the Nexxus P+R video, "this ball will allow amateurs to play the lanes like a pro". Now, do you really think any bowler who is any good is going to believe that? I hope not."
REPLY: It isn't the "good" bowlers, or the "knowledgable" ones that are changing the face of bowling, it is the great masses of un-informed or lesser talented bowlers who want to BE ALLOWED to "play the lanes like a pro" by buying equipment instead of developing the physical skills to do so. There are FAR AND AWAY more of these types of bowlers than there are those who wish to challenge themselves to master the skills necessary to be able to do so on their skill alone.
"You and Falco are almost as reliable as Ground Hog Day with your annual rants. Joe rails against what he feels are too high ball prices and you come on to complain that you haven't been able to adjust your game to take advantage of the new equipment. I don't get that."
REPLY: Sorry that you do not understand. They really are two different points (mine and Joe's), but they are tied together loosely by some things, and the prices that he complains about are often masked behind the facade of technological development, technological advancements that really weren't needed by the "good" bowlers, only by lesser skilled participants who were looking for "the easy way" to score.
"There are weak shell reactive balls, urethane balls with real cores in them, and more than enough old urethanes with pancakes in them to suit just about any bowler that cannot adjust to what must be done with the new reactives. What is the problem?"
REPLY: The "problem" is, that the technological "advancements" did not work equally well for everyone. The people who were already very accurate and could develop the power necessary to score well didn't receive nearly the benefits of those whose skill set WAS just outside the preffered limits, but was moved into the acceptable range by the changes.
And me, personally? I have drilled several (read that as MANY) different pieces, both weak and strong, with several (read that as MANY also) drillings, both weak and strong, and have NOT been able to reproduce the increase in average for myself that MANY formerely considered "lesser skilled" players have been able to since the resin era started. If their talent level has stayed the same (and it has), and my talent level has stayed the same (and it has), the only thing that changed was the technology available, yet their averages have increased geometrically while mine have stayed static.
You and I have jousted before, and it has always been productive. While I can appreciate your take on things, because your intellect tends to show through your sarcasm, we probably will continue to disagree on many things and many subjects. That is not a bad thing though, because it gives us the opportunity to discuss these differences in opinions on an intellectual level. That can only serve to improve undersstanding of the subject as a whole.
I wish things WERE as cut and dried as you try to make them out to be, but regretfully, they are not, and cannot, be that way, because conditions effect us all in different ways, which makes the resolutions different for all of us also, and impossible for some. Perhaps I fall into the "impossible" category. If so, I apologize for wasting peoples time.
I wish things WERE as cut and dried as you try to make them out to be, but regretfully, they are not, and cannot, be that way, because conditions effect us all in different ways, which makes the resolutions different for all of us also, and impossible for some. Perhaps I fall into the "impossible" category. If so, I apologize for wasting peoples time.
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"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein
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"The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits."
Albert Einstein
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Post by: Sunshine n Lollipops on January 21, 2012, 12:54:57 PM
Sorry, buddy, just not buying it. Cream rises to the top...in all sports. Bowlers of superior skills or knowledge should be able to beat those that don't have the same skill or knowledge no matter what is in their bags.
Don't believe in the Uzi, it just went off in my hand. I, I believe in love.
Post by: Juggernaut on January 21, 2012, 05:07:01 PM
My apologies to Joe Falco, as it seems we have totally hijacked and derailed this thread. That being said, here is my reply.
"Sorry, buddy, just not buying it."
REPLY: That's OK, because I am not asking you to "buy" anything. Like I said, we are all individuals, and as such, all have different situations to deal with. I'm sure that some factors effect me more than they do you, because you are dealing with an entirely different set of people there than I am here, and those people tend to create the untenable conditions that I have to deal with here. Everything is relative I suppose.
"Cream rises to the top...in all sports. Bowlers of superior skills or knowledge should be able to beat those that don't have the same skill or knowledge no matter what is in their bags."
REPLY: You have a great ability to make things sound so "concrete", yet under further inspection, your statements are too simplistic in their scope. I agree that the best, more highly skilled bowlers SHOULD be able to prevail, but the advancements have changed what is considered "skill".
When you so drastically alter the playing conditions so that you completely change the way the sport is played, you have turned the sport into something it was never intended to be.
IN SPITE of what you may think, I only want what is best for bowling as a whole. Having the scoring pace artificially inflated by technology instead of skill has proven NOT to be beneficial, REGARDLESS of who wins.
Edited by Juggernaut on 1/21/2012 at 6:10 PM