Author Topic: Question on Acetone.... (Read 8879 times)

trash heap · « **on:** September 03, 2004, 04:25:45 PM »

I received an email message from Bowlingball.com and it was giving a chart on what to use to clean bowling ball. The following statement was made:

Acetone is not approved for use during ABC play, however it may be used before or after bowling.

The latest chart I found, stated that Acetone is not acceptable any time. Has things changed?

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Trash Heap (exflinger wannabe)

TheBowlingKid25 · « **Reply #1 on:** September 04, 2004, 12:30:25 AM »

There was a big debate about all this a month or so ago. Im still not totally sure, but personally I dont, and wont use it at any time.
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16 years and still going strong! 16 years old that is!

The names Warrior Princess, Xena..Warrior Princess
And why would I "saw" pins in half, THATS A WASTE OF PINS!

da Shiv · « **Reply #2 on:** September 04, 2004, 01:00:03 AM »

Two comments about acetone.

1.) It is not acceptable for use at any time.
http://www.bowl.com/bowl/BowlDotCom/common/static.html?page=bowl_speccert_ballcleaner

2.) It works better than anything else.

Shiv
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Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top

da Shiv · « **Reply #3 on:** September 04, 2004, 03:41:54 AM »

I see what you're saying. It looks like a loophole to me. Acetone is listed as "Not Acceptable at Any Time." I, along with almost everyone else, have taken this to mean that acetone is not acceptable at any time.

Are you saying that, based on the opening paragraphs of this section, that what they mean by "Not Acceptable at Any Time" is "Not Acceptable at Any Time During Sanctioned Competition"?

These sentences from the rule

quote:
Therefore, these products may only be used before or after sanctioned competition. Products that were tested are listed on the last page of this correspondence.

do allow for the interpretation that anything is acceptable for use on a ball as long as it is not DURING sanctioned competition. I don't believe that this particular interpretation is what is intended, but the wording of the rule certainly allows for it.

Having said all that, I think that the rule against acetone--if that IS the rule--is nonsense. Acetone swiped across a bowling ball cleans it well, and if it softens it at all, it is only momentarily. Before even learning of this rule, I used acetone constantly to clean bowling balls, and it not only worked well, I never saw the slightest sign that it did any damage to any of the balls, in spite of the fact that many people say it does. Again, I used it on the same balls repeatedly and never saw a single sign of damage or degradation. Since balls are all made from different formulations of the same chemical family, I can't say that SOME balls might not be damaged by acetone, but I never saw it.

Shiv
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Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top

Edited on 9/4/2004 3:35 AM

Edited on 9/4/2004 3:35 AM

DukeHarding · « **Reply #4 on:** September 04, 2004, 02:03:45 PM »

quote:
If you read this rule and took it literally, you could never, ever change the surface or reaction of your ball. What the spirit of the law is intended for is NOT to change the surface or reaction of your ball WHILE you are bowling in sanctioned competition.

Imagine bowling next to a person who couldn't find the reaction he wanted from his ball. Rather than change balls, he takes out an 800 grid pad and starts sanding down his ball to get the ball to hook more, then proceeds to kick your butt. You'd call foul just like I would. That's why the rules exists.

Also, if you read further down the rule, they have a whole list of stuff that you CAN use in between sessions DURING competition that do not alter the ball surfaces, but contain solids or abrasives that MAY change the reaction of the ball that's in violation of rule 18. That's where they came up with the verbiage of "Not Acceptable at Any Time" meaning that you can't use these products even between sessions.

quote:
Products Containing Solids or Abrasives
NOTE: THESE PRODUCTS CONTAIN SOLIDS OR ABRASIVES AND, ALTHOUGH THEY MAY NOT ALTER THE SURFACE HARDNESS OF A BOWLING BALL, CANNOT BE USED DURING ABC/WIBC SANCTIONED COMPETITION BECAUSE IT WOULD BE IN VIOLATION OF RULE 18. HOWEVER, THESE PRODUCTS ARE ALLOWED BEFORE OR AFTER LEAGUE AND/OR TOURNAMENT SESSIONS

Any questions??

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Keep looking... I'm sure there's a 300 in one of those balls you keep buying!!

Edited on 9/4/2004 10:18 AM

<Rant on>ACETONE and NON-ACETONE CLEANERS are illegal to use in ABC sanctioned competition. What part of: "Not Acceptable at Any Time", don't you understand?

I've used acetone on my equipment for 35 years. BUT only the equipment that I use in non-sanctioned competition, i.e., pot games, etc.
Of course I have an arsenal for my ABC-sanctioned competition. ;-)

Most ridiculous rule, I've ever seen. Acetone will not harm your equipment! Never has, never will! As long as you don't soak the ball in a bucket of it.
When we starting soaking balls in the 70s, our motel rooms stunk to high heaven. Very dangerous stuff. Acetone is very flammable, explosive, and a known carcinogen. Can be absorbed through the skin. Wear protective gloves if you use it.

I feel better now . . . That's been bottled up inside for a long time.
Ridiculous ABC rule. They now allow industrial grade diamonds in the new particle balls.
<Rant off>

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You're only as good as your last shot. -- Duke Harding

DukeHarding · « **Reply #5 on:** September 04, 2004, 02:45:47 PM »

quote:
I think, Duke, that most people miss the part that you CAN use acetone as a cleaner/solvent BEFORE and AFTER a sanctioned competition, just not during.

Some people believe you can never, ever use the stuff AT ALL.

Let me do some checking with a source I have...
He should know, if anyone does.

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You're only as good as your last shot. -- Duke Harding

DukeHarding · « **Reply #6 on:** September 04, 2004, 04:51:17 PM »

quote:
Here is the rule (read first);

Acceptable/Non-Acceptable Ball Cleaners

Here is a list of acceptable and not acceptable ball cleaners and polishes. The determination of "acceptable use" is, the product must not soften the ball surface. Acceptable cleaners are products meant to clean the ball surface.

In the past few years, many new polishes, which are designed to change the surface roughness of a bowling ball (the same as abrasives such as sandpaper and Scotch Brite pads), have been introduced in the market-place. These products, which contain solids or abrasives, are normally thick (high viscosity), paste with the consistency of car polish. Since they change the surface roughness of the bowling ball, the ABC/WIBC Equipment Specifications Committee ruled in October, 1994 that any product that alters the surface roughness of a ball is in violation of Rule 18, which prohibits the use of abrasives during sanctioned competition. Therefore, these products may only be used before or after sanctioned competition. Products that were tested are listed on the last page of this correspondence.

The BOLDED text that you are referencing:

Therefore, these products may only be used before or after sanctioned competition. Products that were tested are listed on the last page of this correspondence.

Is referring to polishes and abrasive substances, that are APPROVED. Those are the substances you can use BEFORE or AFTER competition. The UNACCEPTABLE substances (polishes and chemicals)such as the following listings are NOT ACCEPTABLE EVER!!!

COMMERCIAL BALL CLEANERS

Not Acceptable at Any Time

David Greco Cleaner
Dull It - INX Corp.
Master Ball Cleaner - Master Industries
Power Gel - Tech Line
Strike Power - Veterans Products
SS-25
Ultra Clean - Tenth Frame
Varsol

SOLVENTS AND OTHER CHEMICALS:

Not Acceptable at Any Time:

Other Alcohols (i.e. Denatured Ethyl Alcohol, etc.)
Acetone (nail polish remover)
"Armor-All"
"Cutex" non-acetone (nail polish remover)
Ethers, Esters and Ketone (MEK)
Kerosene, Gasoline, other fuels
Most commercial solvents (Xylol, lacquer thinner, mineral spirits, chloro-form, Methyl Hydrate)

Inverted1, That's my take on it, anyhow. The ABC should rewrite the verbiage, and make it crystal clear. I contacted the ABC about this. I won't hold my breath getting an answer. I have a lot of free time, maybe the RULE can be clarified, so it is very easy to understand. Maybe it is and I;m a dense lefty...

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You're only as good as your last shot. -- Duke Harding

da Shiv · « **Reply #7 on:** September 05, 2004, 12:41:26 PM »

This is a very interesting argument, but I think that the wording of the rule is sufficiently vague to support either view. The ABC should clarify this rule so that there is no doubt about what it means.

I believe that besides clarifying the rule, they should also simply drop acetone from the list anyway. There is one simple, overriding reason--a ban against acetone use is unenforceable. Since acetone evaporates completely and leaves no evidence that it was present, there is no way that anyone from the ABC or anyone else could ever know that you were using it unless they saw you doing it. To say that you simply shouldn't use it because it's against the rules and by God you should be honest and abide by the rules is to be overly precious. If everyone did the right thing all the time there would be no need for laws. If a law cannot be enforced, there is no sense in having it.

I'm glad to see all the commentary about how effective acetone is and how it is found in all pro shops. I have been being a good boy and have stopped using acetone in favor of products like Hook-It. As good as Hook-It works, it still does not work as well as acetone, and neither does anything else. As I said before in this thread, I never saw any damage or degradation to any ball that I used acetone on, even after doing it dozens of times. In fact, I was well on the way to believing that acetone use was actually EXTENDING the lifetime of my bowling balls. I've seen articles by well-known coaches and bowling writers saying that acetone damages bowling balls. Well folks, that's what experimentation is for. Years of experimentation with acetone on my bowling balls has yielded not the slightest shred of evidence of damage. None have failed any hardness tests, either.

Shiv
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Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top

JohnP · « **Reply #8 on:** September 05, 2004, 01:59:03 PM »

Acetone is in MY pro shop for one reason. It is the only thing I know of that will take super glue off of balls. When gluing finger grips, thumb slugs, etc., almost inevitably a little super glue gets on the ball. I use a small amount of acetone on a paper towel to remove it. That does not affect the coverstock in any way. I DO NOT use acetone for completely cleaning a ball. -- JohnP

da Shiv · « **Reply #9 on:** September 05, 2004, 03:07:21 PM »

quote:
The other reason, I believe, that acetone is banned because it is highly volatile and a dangerous substance.

If the ABC said it was ok to use, you would have a hugh liability risk imposed on them should someone become ill or injured.

The dangerousness of acetone is a fact, but it is not unusual for people to have a wide variety of dangerous and volatile chemicals around their houses (or garages), including gasoline, kerosene, turpentine, and drain cleaners.

All of these chemicals can be misused, and it isn't up to the ABC to protect us from ourselves. They don't have to specifically APPROVE acetone, they could simply remove it from any of their lists. Those approved and unapproved lists don't include every possible chemical that could be used on a bowling ball.

Shiv
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Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top

DukeHarding · « **Reply #10 on:** September 05, 2004, 05:14:29 PM »

quote:
Everything you say is absolutely true. However, if you are the governing body sanctioning an event, you have the responsibility of making it as safe as possible for all participants. If you take a substance such as acetone with it's inherently dangerous properties and REMOVE it from your banned list, it's as good as approving it's use.

Trust me, the minute somebody fell ill or happened to get injured, the law firm of Dewey, Screwum and Howe will be all over the ABC like LuckyLefty on NIB bowling balls.

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Keep looking... I'm sure there's a 300 in one of those balls you keep buying!!

Inverted 1,
I sent an email to Len Nicholson (The Phanthom), the ex-PBA laneman. Very experienced in all bowling matters, I'm sure most bowlers would agree.

Here's The Phanthom's reponse:

NO....you can NOT use anything that will ALTER a balls surface hardness.
Acetone WILL alter the surface hardness.

Hope that helps.

Len

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You're only as good as your last shot. -- Duke Harding

DukeHarding · « **Reply #11 on:** September 05, 2004, 06:30:55 PM »

quote:
Time frame?? Before or After sanctioned competition? I agree you can't alter the hardness or surface of a ball during competition. That was never the question.

Let me give you an example. Let's say you have ball that has a duro reading of 78. The ABC standard is 72. The ball manufacture gives the range of 74- 78. You clean the ball before ABC competition with acetone then duro the ball at 76. You've cleaned the ball, it's still in range of the manufactures specs.

I say it's a legal ball because:

a) You've cleaned it with acetone BEFORE any competition.

b) The hardness is still within the manufactures specs and above the ABC
minimum.

Also, Dull it and Ultra Clean are also on the never, never, ever list. Yet, I know that as long as you don't use these during sanctioned competition, they are perfectly ok to use on your ball.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that the ABC governs rules of competition during sanctioned play where they can control them. They have no control of what happens before or after that time, nor do they want to.

If I clean by ball with acetone or ultra clean, take it to an ABC competition and it passes the durometer test along with all the other inspections, it's going to play, being perfectly legal.

You're saying that you can never, ever use any of these substances at any time. Also, any equipment that has EVER been touched by any of the banned substances you can never,ever use that ball in sanctioned competition again??
Sorry, that makes no sense whatsoever.

I'll do so more research myself on this matter. No disrespect to Phamton either, I sure that he has a wealth of knowledge in this matter, but, he's not with the ABC.

Makes for a good thread, doesn't it?

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Keep looking... I'm sure there's a 300 in one of those balls you keep buying!!

Your mention of durometer hardness, reminds me of a few times back in the 70s, when I was shooting 10 gamer tournaments. We had a break after 5 games, for lunch, etc. They would check hardness of the balls. If the ball was soft, we would take them into the bathroom, plug the holes with paper, put them in the toilet and flush until the ball hardened up a few points. The end of the spectrum, if we walked in and the lanes were to oily, we would go into the bathroom, and put the balls under hand dryers to soften them up. There would be lines in the john in both cases.

Back to the present, I emailed the rules person at ABC. And received an automated response, that they would give me an answer within 5 days. I gave my phone number, but I don't really expect a phone answer. I will post ABC's response.

It's a good thread.

See my new thread, VOTE on ACETONE use...
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You're only as good as your last shot. -- Duke Harding

MI 2 AZ · « **Reply #12 on:** September 05, 2004, 07:39:00 PM »

Reply from ABC is below:

First of all, the use of acetone is illegal at ALL times. Which means
it is illegal to use before, during and after competition. Link
referring to this---
http://www.bowl.com/bowl/BowlDotCom/common/static.html?page=bowl_speccert_ballcleaner

The repercussions to using acetone could result in: "If it is shown the
bowler had prior knowledge their actions were in violation of Rule 18,
the game(s) in which the violation occurred is subject to forfeiture. In
addition, the bowler is subject to dismissal from the league and
suspension of membership. Competition is defined as the remainder of
the current game and remaining game(s) in the series being bowled."
Please refer to the 2004-05 Rule Book in the Unfair Tactics section on
page 14, Rule 18.

Link:
https://www.bowlingmembership.com/PDF/Rules/0405_complete_rulebook.pdf

I also went through the discussion forum on ballreviews.com. I am not
sure how to best answer the discussion that is currently going on there
about acetone. With discussion forums, people can remain anonymous-or
establish incorrect identities and so on. One person on the discussion
forum may say that "he is using acetone" on his equipment....saying that
it works and is the best thing out there, but he may be doing that just
to deceive or misinform people. Noted on that same discussion is the
posting of the ABC/WIBC Playing rules referring the Acceptable
Products/Cleaners and someone posted Acetone is Not Acceptable at any
time. With this example, please use caution when looking for bowling
related information on a discussion forum.

We will also look into the newsletter from bowlingball. com to see if
the information they published is accurate. If you do come across a
copy of it, please send it to us at the address listed below.

We appreciate your concern and hopefully the above information provided
enough information to cover all of your questions. If you do have
further questions, please reply to me by any of the means listed below.

Thank you,

Rory Holland

Research Engineer
Specification and Certification Department
5301 S. 76th Street
Greendale, WI 53129
414-423-3495
800-514-BOWL ext. 3495
rory.holland@bowl.com

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I just want 2C was'zzub.
____________________________________

I am the SGT Schultz of bowling.
"I know nothing!"

MI 2 AZ · « **Reply #13 on:** September 05, 2004, 07:48:50 PM »

Here's another email from the same person at ABC:

Proshops should not be using acetone to clean bowling balls. If they
are it would fall on the rule listed below about knowingly using the
product with relation to the bowling ball owner. There are just so many
other acceptable products out there for cleaning equipment than for
someone to use acetone. As for figuring out if a proshop is using
acetone to clean the bowling ball...it can soften a bowling ball, damage
finger grips and thumb slugs, but other than that it would be hard to
detect. Your comment about the durometer is correct in being hard to
detect without knowing the prior information.

Rory H

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I just want 2C was'zzub.
____________________________________

I am the SGT Schultz of bowling.
"I know nothing!"

da Shiv · « **Reply #14 on:** September 05, 2004, 10:38:15 PM »

So, it appears that the rule about acetone is meant to be interpreted the way that most of us have interpreted it for some time; namely that is not allowed at any time, ever.

I maintain that this is a ridiculous rule, but as I said in a previous post in this thread, I no longer use it. I also maintain that this is an unenforceable, and therefore doubly pointless rule.

Of course, as Rory Holland pointed out, I could be making up everything I've said about the results of my long experimentation with acetone back before I even found out that it was forbidden. I guess you'll have to experiment yourself to find out. Or, you can just believe everything that the authorities say about acetone. They couldn't say it if it wasn't true, could they?

Shiv
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Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top

Author Topic: Question on Acetone.... (Read 8879 times)

trash heap

Question on Acetone....

TheBowlingKid25

Re: Question on Acetone....

da Shiv

Re: Question on Acetone....

da Shiv

Re: Question on Acetone....

DukeHarding

Re: Question on Acetone....

DukeHarding

Re: Question on Acetone....

DukeHarding

Re: Question on Acetone....

da Shiv

Re: Question on Acetone....

JohnP

Re: Question on Acetone....

da Shiv

Re: Question on Acetone....

DukeHarding

Re: Question on Acetone....

DukeHarding

Re: Question on Acetone....

MI 2 AZ

Re: Question on Acetone....

MI 2 AZ

Re: Question on Acetone....

da Shiv

Re: Question on Acetone....