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Author Topic: Question on USBC proposals  (Read 2081 times)

thedjs

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Question on USBC proposals
« on: May 02, 2005, 03:51:50 AM »
I see that we won't be able to use balls with balance holes after 2006 as well as having to have the cg within a certain distance from the center of the grip.  I also understand that all new balls after 2006 must have the USBC logo.

What I don't see is anything saying that balls (which meet all other requirements) without the logo will be illegal.  Only that all new balls after 2006 will have to have it.

So, it this is correct, my older reactive balls (without a balance hole and with the cg within the legal distance) will still be legal.

Is this correct?

 

Re-Evolution

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Re: Question on USBC proposals
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2005, 03:22:21 PM »
quote:
actually he saves 5-10 dollars on every ball he purchases (cost of drilling weight hole)


If your driller charges you for a balance hole you are getting DRILLED too.
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MichiganBowling

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Re: Question on USBC proposals
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2005, 03:30:29 PM »
Actually the cost of bowling balls should theorettically go down, because the need for high tech balls with assymetric weight blocks will greatly diminish.  Spending $229 for a high tech ball will be foolish when you are not able to take advantage of the core with the off label drillings anymore.  There will be slight advantages with high tech balls, but a good bowler will be able to create the same advantage with their ability and save about $50-$100.
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gbushman

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Re: Question on USBC proposals
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2005, 07:09:58 PM »
In REGARDS to future PRICES - in the MORICH forum, Precision had THIS posted

 
quote:
Yes, Mo has spoken out on the new proposals and has stated that he is not at all happy that the USBC is on the verge of ruining our sport. What most people do not understand is that with these new proposed specifications we can still provide bowlers with dynamically strong equipment; especially with the type of asymmetrical balls Mo has designed. But, we will need to find the "perfect" ball for each and every customer, this will cost dearly. Not only will production costs be up, distribution costs will also rise. If production and distributions costs rise so will retail and drilling costs.

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BuddiesProShopcom - Bill

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Re: Question on USBC proposals
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2005, 07:30:58 PM »
MY VIEWS DO NOT REFLEX THE VIEWS OF BUDDIESPROSHOP.COM

I think that the rule changes with have very little effect on the game in the long run.  Companies will figure out quick how to get around it.  I think it is like telling golfer that they hit the ball to far, so they can only hit irons now.  It is not the bowling companies fault, it is the fact that a once a week bowler can walk in a house and shot 800's and 300's without having to practice because the lanes are so walled up.

I bowl on a sport pattern league and the shot changes every 4th week.  It is a very tough condition but the high average for the league is 198.  No one complains about the tough lane conditions, because they know that making good shots is the only way to score on those conditions.  

I think the USBC would be better off addressing the lane dressing patterns that 99.9% of house shots. With the technology in today's $25,000.00 lane machines, the possible lane conditions are just about endless.

I would also like to know what is the reasoning for the USBC proposed changes and how they think this will help the sport of bowling.  I could talk about this for days, but I will just leave it at that.
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pin-chaser

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Re: Question on USBC proposals
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2005, 08:56:55 PM »
Simply put, today's ball technology properly applied MAGNAFIES todays THS to the point that bowlers litterly can close there eyes, release the ball completely differently , show up once a week and still score.

This issue here is that the vast majority of bowlers are bowlers that know NO difference as they are a by product of both todays technology and THS. To bowl should require skills and not technology. Without question, without techonolgy the most skilled bowlers would become average bowlers against those with matched up technologies. I dont think anyone will argue with that. Its time, bowlers with skills simply out score bowlers without them. Thats integrity.


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MichiganBowling

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Re: Question on USBC proposals
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2005, 01:12:35 AM »
Lanes have been walled for years.  Bowling used to be a game of creating the right axis tilt, ball speed, accuracy, and entry angle.  Hitting the pocket has always been easy, but hitting it in the proper manner to carry was how a bowler was judged and how his/her scores were figured.

The fact is, there are many ways to skin a cat.  Regardless of what has caused the outrageous scoring conditions, we now need to pick a way or several ways to fix the problem.  If we propose too many solutions and let them all come to fruition, then we have just confused everybody again.

When listening to Mo Pinel's opinions, we must also realize which perspective he is coming from.  The new proposals from USBC go directly against everything that Mo preaches from drilling monster weight holes to drilling assymetrical cores off label.  Of course he is going to speak out against such proposals even if they are good for the sport in the long run.  Mo is one of the people who has been finding ways to push things to the limit while still staying within the governing bodies' specifications, so all of the work and teachings that he has done in the past several years is suddenly being thrown out the window.  

The basic truth here is that the most fair thing would be to give everybody the exact same ball with the same exact drill pattern and keep everything on that bowling ball the same for each person.  When we can do that, then we are just about as close as we can be to making bowling a fair sport.  Cut down friction and then we can make it even more fair because then we are not able to dry out certain parts of the lane to create advantages for certain people.  

As long as we can move oil and as long as the bowling ball is a huge variable, the sport will have some level of unfairness.  Our goal at this point should be to make the sport as fair as possible which in my opinion would be to strongly tighten restrictions to bowling balls and also to lower the oil ratio, or actually INTRODUCE an oil ratio to sanctioned bowling.  Making these changes will make a lot of bowlers, bowling center proprietors, and many others in the industry very unhappy.  

But I say let the centers drop their sanctions...let the league bowlers whine until their league does drop their sanctions...let some of the ball manufacturers whine...and we'll see that the people who truly care about the sport will be the ones remaining and we can rebuild the "sport" with this group of people.  It is time for people to stop being so selfish and to sacrafice a little now for a better tomorrow.  Otherwise things will just continue to collapse until there is no hope for tomorrow.
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No Fear

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Re: Question on USBC proposals
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2005, 01:52:41 AM »
"But I say let the centers drop their sanctions...let the league bowlers whine until their league does drop their sanctions...let some of the ball manufacturers whine...and we'll see that the people who truly care about the sport will be the ones remaining and we can rebuild the "sport" with this group of people. It is time for people to stop being so selfish and to sacrafice a little now for a better tomorrow. Otherwise things will just continue to collapse until there is no hope for tomorrow."

Brian....How can You care about Bowling and say this??....I have taken an informal poll in the three centers I bowl in....Results are that One out of Four bowlers will Quit if they have to trash their current balls...thats 25%...Also all three owners say they will not sanction!!....The sacrifice You speak of will not make a better tomorrow....JUST A SMALLER GROUP oF BOWLERS...That will still complain!!!

HamPster

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Re: Question on USBC proposals
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2005, 06:00:28 AM »
Brian, you and No Fear both make good points.  I'd like to see bowling return to what it was 20 years ago, even though I've only been bowling for the last 5.  I hate resin, I hate wall shots, and I hate these no-talent hacks that luck out honor scores every year.  I'd like to see the skill return.  Former touring pro, and owner of one of the first televised PBA 300 games (in the championship match, no less) Bob Benoit, lives here in town, and bowls in one of the leagues I do.  I can't remember the last time he's thrown a new ball, and he rarely throws resin.  He'll bring out a Ninja or an X-Zone every now and then, but over half the season he used a White Dot, and shot 720 just about every week.  Everybody else, myself included, keep buying new balls to keep up with the scoring pace.  I could average over 200 with plastic, and frequently have, but I can't keep up with the guys in between because of resin and walled up shots.  210's aren't going to win you many games in a scratch league where most of them average well over 220.  Are most of them 220+ average bowlers?  No, but resin + wall = scores.  Bob should be the best, or very close to the top, skill-wise in that league.  

However, people like scoring.  The high numbers make it fun, not the shotmaking, like it used to be.  I'd rather hit the same board over and over again than strike over and over again.  Other people don't care, and can't even see it.  There's a lady that I bowled with for most of the season this last year that averages 210, and can't for her life figure out why she left that 10 pin, or why she had a washout.  Low revs, forward roll, naturally she's gonna hit weak every now and again.  I can tell at the arrows if it has a chance, or what it'll leave if it doesn't strike, and she won't see what happens until the ball hits the pins.  Either she catches too much oil, has the wrong angle, hits the right target at the arrows, but missed it at the line and will miss it at the breakpoint, doesn't quite hit it, misses her angle of rotation, etc.  She can't see those little basic mistakes that cause the leaves she gets, and then whines about it.  I can't say anything, naturally, because she's twice my age and has been bowling 5 times longer than I have, so of course I CAN'T know what I'm talking about.  These kinds of people aren't satisfied with their scores NOW, so what's going to happen when everything is taken back to how it used to be?  Yes, people will begin to quit.  However, there will still be open bowling that the houses make a KILLING off of, and the true bowlers will stick around.  Handicap will always be handicap too, so just because you now average 180 instead of 200, 90% of 220 will get you the same score if you bowl your average.
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azguy

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Re: Question on USBC proposals
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2005, 07:18:25 AM »
Just to stir the pot,
IF I understand the proposal correctly, if there is a weight hole, no logo then after 2008 it will NOT be legal.

Another question.
Under the rules of today, a ball must have a registration number. I had a ball, my wife's, that was resurfaced a couple years ago and it was done so badly the numbers were taken off. I asked Ebonite and they provided me a number in the range of the timeframe of manufacturing of this ball, I put the numbers back on and now it is legal ( under today's rules).

Given that, IF these pass, what is there to say a person couldn't put the logo on an older ball, date of manufacture and then, wouldn't it be legal ?

I hope this thought comes across as I intended, it's very early in the morning and the brain is not 100%, yet, but you get my point, I hope.
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MichiganBowling

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Re: Question on USBC proposals
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2005, 03:49:58 PM »
No Fear,

I am not proposing that bowling centers lose bowlers, I am simply saying that why do bowlers need to be sanctioned these days when the sport is a joke?  Let's take Bowling Center A and say that everything happens as you say it will, and the center drops the sanctions for all of their leagues.  Would their center necessarily lose all of those bowlers?  Probably not, in my opinion.  Only the USBC would be losing bowlers.

I suppose that could be up for debate, but I wanted to make my point that I am not proposing that we make these changes even if bowlers are going to quit the game in droves.  That would be foolish.

What I think would make the most sense here is if we could somehow introduce perhaps 3 sanctioning levels.  The recreational level would be for what seems to be the vast majority of bowlers out there who want to shoot high scores every night with basically no limitations other than what is already in place.  A 2nd level could be called a competitive sanction which would include some of the things they are talking about doing now.  Perhaps limit the oil ratios to 5-1 or less along with the weight hole and center of gravity restrictions that they are talking about.  The 3rd sanction is already in place and would be called Sport Bowling.  

Doing this should keep everybody happy and the USBC would not lose any more bowlers than they are already losing, and in the long run they may even gain bowlers.  

Another proposal might include having 3 different lane condition sanctions and 3 different ball restriction sanctions.  Then you could mix and match the variables.  Make a sport sanctioned league (2-1 oil ratio) and use the high ball restriction sanction (which might include strong restrictions on coverstock tampering, rg and rg differential, off label drilling, etc.), or use a sport sanctioned league with the low ball restriction sanction (let all the high tech stuff in).  You get the idea.

This other idea above may be too complex, but it might be worth trying to see how things go.  Maybe try to get people to accept these different sanctions for 2-3 years, and then if things aren't working out, we can go back to the first idea or modify the plan a bit.  It seems that we are so worried about trying things here.  Once the bowlers know that the USBC is genuinely trying to make things better for all, I should think that the bowlers would be open to many new ideas and trials.  

Honesty from both sides would go a long way in helping these matters be resolved...oh yeah, and unselfishness wouldn't hurt either!!!
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shelley

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Re: Question on USBC proposals
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2005, 04:43:52 PM »
quote:

However, people like scoring.  The high numbers make it fun, not the shotmaking, like it used to be.  I'd rather hit the same board over and over again than strike over and over again.  Other people don't care, and can't even see it.


Maybe we need to come up with a new scoring system rather than put in restrictions on drilling that, it seems, aren't really addressing the problem.  I've seen most of the comments say something like "Reward shotmaking, reward hitting your target, reward consistency."  Well let's do exactly that.  

Let's put a series of sensors in the lane surface that can tell when a ball rolls over them.  Choose a target, speed, and revs ahead of time (like calling the pocket when playing 8-ball).  If you hit the target at the called speed and revs, you are awarded a strike.  If you don't, then the computer chooses a leave.  You again choose your target, speed, and revs and throw the ball again.  If your shot matches what you chose, you get the spare.

I think this will save a LOT of money and reward exactly what we want to reward.  First, there's no need for pins, pinsetters, or fancy electronic scorers that count the remaining pins.  Just something to slow the ball down and send it back to the player.  We can all go back to using plastic bowling balls, reducing costs for the players since all they have to do is hit their target consistently.  It will simplify ball manufacturing since all balls will be the same, up to differences in color.

This new system doesn't reward or penalize any particular styles.  Crankers have to do the same thing that strokers do: hit the target they want to hit with a particular speed and revolutions.  Every style will have equal opportunity for scoring.

Clearly, this system where throwing a ball and knocking down pins is not working.  If we base scoring on something foolish like knocking down pins, then there are lots of ways to do that without being consistent.  I mean, the pins don't know if you hit your target, or if you threw the same shot this time as last time.  

This will totally take out the heartbreak that comes with throwing the best shot of the night and leaving a stone 10 for a 299.  If it was just as consistent as the other shots, then it'll result in a strike.  If it was a bad shot, then there will be no leeway for inconsistency and there won't be a 300.  No "lucky breaks" or "bad juju" or whatever that falsely rewards or penalizes a bad or good shot.  A good shot is a good shot and a bad shot is a bad shot.

That's the type of bowling that I think the USBC should adopt.  Absolute rewards for consistency and absolute failure for poor shotmaking.

SH

nd300

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Re: Question on USBC proposals
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2005, 06:19:18 PM »
I simply think that the USBC should deal with oil patterns and ratios first. Going in and throwing the same line within a board or two every week doesn't make you a better bowler. Nor does buying the latest "hook in a box" ball that just hit the market improve your game. In the short run it will. But over time on the same shot and the same oil pattern,will you get better???  
         NO.....
 There ARE those rare few who have natural talent and can understand what's happening and adjust,but I simply think that oil pattern rules should be first.
 Then, and only then,come up with a REASONABLE ball rule or rules.
 I simply think that the USBC is going about this with a knee-jerk reaction thinking pattern. Then again,maybe they looked at golf's COR limit of.830 and said "Why not do something similar to bowling balls???"
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shelley

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Re: Question on USBC proposals
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2005, 06:37:41 PM »
quote:
Shelley, What are you smoking?


I just figure that if we want to reward consistency and shotmaking, then we should do that explicitly.  Don't rely on an unreliable measure like number of pins knocked over.  There are too many ways to knock down ten pins that aren't due to consistency or good shotmaking.

It seems like the real issue is not the balls or the drilling (which many have said), it's the way bad shots carry like good shots.  People seem to think that is ruining a sport where the WHOLE POINT IS TO KNOCK DOWN THE PINS.  Like my teammates are fond of saying, "[the rule book] doesn't say how, it says how many".  If you want a game where the rule book says "how, not how many", you want a different game.  Don't call it "bowling," because that would be very confusing.

So change the rules so that when someone makes a bad shot and it carries, the opposing team may have some of the pins stood back up.  We suggest this every time our opponent has a set of domino pins where hitting the 3-6 pocket results in a strike where the 7 knocks into the 4 into the 2 into the head pin.  "Stand summa those pins back up," we yell.  I don't think we're the only ones who do this.

It seems like mostly the "serious" bowlers who "care" about the sport are bicthing about too-high scoring.  Having participated in a summer sport league, I know the hassle and expense it is to get a house to do it (we're not doing it this year because the laneman and the local association don't get along).  I understand that it's tough to get them going.  Supposedly the new Sport rules are a little easier and cheaper to comply with, so maybe we'll start getting more sport leagues starting up.  I'd certainly participate again if the laneman learns the difference between 90 units of oil and a sport shot (when there's enough oil for it to "flow" and flatten itself out, it's too much).

If someone wants to be snobby about scores, that's fine.  When someone tells you they shot a 300, feel free to ask if it's a "real" 300 on a "real" shot.  Add rules that allow for leagues to make up arbitrary rules like "CG within 1in of grip center" so that the "serious" bowlers who "care" about the sport.  If honor scores are so frequently shot, make it a patch like the 7-10 or Big-4 and only give rings for sport-compliant leagues.

But don't screw it up for the bread and butter, the recreational bowler who couldn't care less what a hard shot is like and doesn't even understand what that extra hole is for except that it has to be there.  Someone mentioned having levels or ratings and I think that's a good idea.  Make a distinction between leagues with rules about drillings and grits and those that don't have those rules.  We do the same with the oil patterns (sport vs. non-sport).

SH

janderson

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Re: Question on USBC proposals
« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2005, 06:41:59 PM »
quote:
I have taken an informal poll in the three centers I bowl in....Results are that One out of Four bowlers will Quit if they have to trash their current balls...thats 25%...


Just out of curiosity, out that 25%, how many of those bowlers plan on still using their current equipment into 2008?
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