Author Topic: release changes and layouts (Read 1706 times)

six pack · « **on:** April 08, 2009, 04:42:15 AM »

I've been thinking about some posts that I've read in the past and they have brought up a few questions to mind.
if you release up the back of the ball that would give you a higher track,Right?and if you come around the ball that would lower your rack,right?
now let say you have a ball with a 4x4 layout and you release the ball with your normal release with a pap of 5x0 and all is fine untill the ball starts to roll too soon,what do you do? I would move in to some fresh oil and add some rotation to promote skid to the dry.but if that release change drops your track now that 4x4 layout is a 3.5" or 3" or maybe even 2.5" pin to pap? and if that's the case then that release change to make the ball skid and hook later would make it just roll earlier?

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The harder I try the harder they fall

Dan Belcher · « **Reply #1 on:** April 08, 2009, 03:30:08 PM »

Actually, MOST hand position and release changes will not have any noticable effect on your PAP location. The PAP is mostly determined by where the ball is when it comes off your thumb and fingers. The amount of axis rotation and amount of axis tilt are NOT directly connected with your PAP location. You might have 30 degrees of axis rotation and 15 degrees of axis tilt with your up the back release when playing the gutter, and 60 degrees of axis rotation and 25 degrees of axis tilt with your come-around-it release for playing deep inside, but your PAP location will still be roughly around 5 inches straight across from grip center. Slap a piece of white tape on your PAP the next time you go practice, and try using different releases. The piece of tape will rotate in one spot before the ball flares a bunch downlane, even if that spot is different with your different releases.

six pack · « **Reply #2 on:** April 08, 2009, 08:27:22 PM »

Thanks Dan, I remember doing the tape on PAP thing and trying different releases and yes you are correct,the spot never moved other then 0,45 or 90.
it just seemed confuseing reading all these posts that this ball changed my track or this release changed my track etc.etc.etc.
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The harder I try the harder they fall

DukeHarding · « **Reply #3 on:** April 08, 2009, 08:48:47 PM »

quote:
Actually, MOST hand position and release changes will not have any noticable effect on your PAP location. The PAP is mostly determined by where the ball is when it comes off your thumb and fingers. The amount of axis rotation and amount of axis tilt are NOT directly connected with your PAP location. You might have 30 degrees of axis rotation and 15 degrees of axis tilt with your up the back release when playing the gutter, and 60 degrees of axis rotation and 25 degrees of axis tilt with your come-around-it release for playing deep inside, but your PAP location will still be roughly around 5 inches straight across from grip center. Slap a piece of white tape on your PAP the next time you go practice, and try using different releases. The piece of tape will rotate in one spot before the ball flares a bunch downlane, even if that spot is different with your different releases.

Dan,
Are you saying that, if I lower my track from say 1/4"-1/2" from the holes to 2"-3" from the holes it doesn't change my PAP at all, or very little?
I'm confused!

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Duke Harding

"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about."

the pooh · « **Reply #4 on:** April 08, 2009, 09:09:31 PM »

MOST people cannot change their pap if they try! It is much easier to change rotation of axis,revolutions,or speed,than your pap.It is like a person's fingerprinthighly individual and almost impossible to change.

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the pooh

mainzer · « **Reply #5 on:** April 08, 2009, 09:15:40 PM »

amen Pooh!
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''If their is a life after death,
then their is no death,
and if their is no death,
we do not live''

Progressive Metal Band
EVERGREY

MainzerPower

six pack · « **Reply #6 on:** April 08, 2009, 09:18:10 PM »

what about different cores, asymetrical vrs. symetrical? I know for a fact that my black hammer tracks higher then some of my asymetrical core balls.
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The harder I try the harder they fall

the pooh · « **Reply #7 on:** April 08, 2009, 09:29:07 PM »

Except for large grip differences,every ball leaves your hand the same! This is why pap is more correctly called the INITIAL positive axis point.The core and surface immediately begin to change the rollsome more than others.This is why the only true way to accurately find your pap is with a low- to- no flare plastic ball!

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the pooh

Carlos Colon · « **Reply #8 on:** April 08, 2009, 09:43:21 PM »

quote:
what about different cores, asymetrical vrs. symetrical? I know for a fact that my black hammer tracks higher then some of my asymetrical core balls.
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The harder I try the harder they fall

Same here. My Cell Pearl tracks lower than all my other balls by about an inch?

DukeHarding · « **Reply #9 on:** April 08, 2009, 10:17:19 PM »

quote:
MOST people cannot change their pap if they try! It is much easier to change rotation of axis,revolutions,or speed,than your pap.It is like a person's fingerprinthighly individual and almost impossible to change.
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the pooh

I've been under the impression, that if I roll the ball clipping the fingers and thumb, and take the same ball, and spin it, with my track dropped 3-4" inches that the PAP was different...Live and Learn.

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Duke Harding

"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about."

the pooh · « **Reply #10 on:** April 08, 2009, 10:55:11 PM »

Duke,in that example,I've seen people do exactly what you said and had their pap NOT change one bit! What they did,was change their tilt,the tape on their pap was still the center of their roll! It was positioned higher and the track was smaller,but the pap was in the same exact spot!It can, and does happen.Like I said,bowlers think they are changing their pap when many times it is their rotation of axis or tilt they have changed.When the tilt changes,the track changes but the pap can remain identical!

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the pooh

DukeHarding · « **Reply #11 on:** April 08, 2009, 11:12:15 PM »

quote:
Duke,in that example,I've seen people do exactly what you said and had their pap NOT change one bit! What they did,was change their tilt,the tape on their pap was still the center of their roll! It was positioned higher and the track was smaller,but the pap was in the same exact spot!It can, and does happen.Like I said,bowlers think they are changing their pap when many times it is their rotation of axis or tilt they have changed.When the tilt changes,the track changes but the pap can remain identical!
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the pooh

Interesting.

I get a lot of equipment from a lower track bowler.
I'm a fairly high tracker. My PAP measures 5-3/4, 1/2 up, and I normally use his basic layouts. (unless the layout would bring my track up on the holes, then I plug and re-lay the ball out).

I normally, plug the fingers or thumb and redrill...and the layouts work fine for my game.

Maybe that's why I've never quite understood the whole PAP idea...since I could use his equipment, and manipulate my release and get the same reaction he gets.

I'm going to have to play around with tape on my PAP and see what happens when I change rotation, tilt, etc.

Thanks....

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Duke Harding

"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about."

renoatpikeville · « **Reply #12 on:** April 09, 2009, 12:43:08 AM »

quote:
Except for large grip differences,every ball leaves your hand the same! This is why pap is more correctly called the INITIAL positive axis point.The core and surface immediately begin to change the rollsome more than others.This is why the only true way to accurately find your pap is with a low- to- no flare plastic ball!
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the pooh

When I throw my spare ball I track over the middle finger and directly in the middle of my thumb but when I throw my strike ball it is 4 1/2 over and 1/8 down...

JohnP · « **Reply #13 on:** April 09, 2009, 10:40:07 AM »

To help visualize different tracks with the same PAP, think about the Negative Axis Point (NAP), which is directly across the ball from the PAP, on a line from the PAP through the center of the ball. The NAP is the center of the initial track ring. Now think of all the concentric circles that will have the same center point - that's how you can have a track 1" from the holes and 3" from the holes with the same PAP but different track diameters (axis tilts). -- JohnP

DukeHarding · « **Reply #14 on:** April 09, 2009, 10:55:39 AM »

quote:
To help visualize different tracks with the same PAP, think about the Negative Axis Point (NAP), which is directly across the ball from the PAP, on a line from the PAP through the center of the ball. The NAP is the center of the initial track ring. Now think of all the concentric circles that will have the same center point - that's how you can have a track 1" from the holes and 3" from the holes with the same PAP but different track diameters (axis tilts). -- JohnP

JohnP,

Wouldn't your PAP change if your track shifted?

Say when you're tracking high 1" x 1", from fingers and thumb...
compared to lower 3"-4" x 1", from fingers and thumb?

Your PAP would move UP wouldn't it?
Which would change your PAP, correct?

Thanks,
--------------------
Duke Harding

"Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about."

Author Topic: release changes and layouts (Read 1706 times)

six pack

release changes and layouts

Dan Belcher

Re: release changes and layouts

six pack

Re: release changes and layouts

DukeHarding

Re: release changes and layouts

the pooh

Re: release changes and layouts

mainzer

Re: release changes and layouts

six pack

Re: release changes and layouts

the pooh

Re: release changes and layouts

Carlos Colon

Re: release changes and layouts

DukeHarding

Re: release changes and layouts

the pooh

Re: release changes and layouts

DukeHarding

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renoatpikeville

Re: release changes and layouts

JohnP

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DukeHarding

Re: release changes and layouts