Post by: DukeHarding on December 14, 2005, 08:26:47 AM
You had recommended 3/8 forward in the thumb, to alleviate my problem with the skin peeling off the back of my thumb, when using Magic Carpet.
I plugged an old ball that had 1/8 reverse, 1/8 left lateral in the thumb.
I told my driller to put 1/4 forward in the ball, as I thought that it was really pushing the forward pitch to an extreme. He thought 1/4 forward was extreme, and recommended 1/8 forward. I went with 1/4 forward.
I picked the ball up Monday night...put a sleeve in the thumb hole, installed a piece of MC...and went out to practice with the nall today. I remembered what you said about not squeezing the ball. I took my catcher's mask with, just in case, I did squeeze the ball...I didn't need it.
It took a game to get used to the pitch, and relax my hand.
I had no trouble at all coming out of the ball. My practice partner said it was the cleanest he had seen my release in years. Funny thing is: I could go an 1/8 more forward in the thumb. I found I was squeezing the ball a little tiny bit.
I also want to publicly thank you, for the quick service, sending out the "lost" Magic Carpet shipment...You are A+ in my book.
My practice partner put a piece of Magic Carpet in his ball, and liked it...He likes the whole Magic Carpet concept...makes sense.
On Edit:
I'm using BLUE Vise Skin Protection tape. I super glue the end to my thumb nail, and stretch the tape tight down the thumb 3/4" past the beginning of the thumb (towards the hand), stopped the redness, and tearing totally.
--------------------
Duke Harding
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bowling Coaches Web Site Link (http://"http://www.bowlingcoach.com/")
"Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty.
Anyone who keeps learning stays young.
The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young." -- Henry Ford
Edited on 12/14/2005 6:00 PM
Post by: Magic Carpet on December 15, 2005, 08:50:56 AM
As your hand learns to relax more (it will) you will most likely want to go even more forward, more than 3/8s.
Changing the world one thumb hole at the time.
Ron Clifton
Post by: Steven on December 15, 2005, 10:01:44 AM
I may have to jump on a plane and pay Ron a visit.
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"Sometimes, the best move is the one we don't make"
Post by: Ragnar on December 15, 2005, 10:08:02 AM
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Will Jesus bring the pork chops?
Post by: Phillip Marlowe on December 15, 2005, 10:11:56 AM
Ron, the Magic Carpet has made it possible for me to get almost a custom fit and reduce grabbing at the bottom in a reverse pitch. Superior product (unsolicited product plug).
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"Some guys get the world. Other guys get ex-hookers and a trip to Arizona."
Edited on 12/15/2005 11:05 AM
Post by: Brickguy221 on December 15, 2005, 10:15:00 AM
quote:
I find this amazing. I'm experimenting with going from 7/16 reverse to 5/16 reverse, and I'm not sure I'm going to be able to do it.......
I may have to jump on a plane and pay Ron a visit.
Same for me. In fact I increased mine from 1/8 reverse to 3/16 reverse. Steven, Ron's batting average might drop below 1000 after you and I visit.....lol
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Brick
Post by: mumzie on December 15, 2005, 10:18:44 AM
Thanks, Ron!
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Post by: Steven on December 15, 2005, 10:31:06 AM
I would really like to know for sure if it's a personal technique problem or just plain being flexibility challenged.
Otherwise, my current technique is similar to what Phillip described -- a tighter thumbhole, and additionally less bevel.
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"Sometimes, the best move is the one we don't make"
Post by: LuckyLefty on December 15, 2005, 10:35:50 AM
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS just curious!
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Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
Post by: Ragnar on December 15, 2005, 10:46:29 AM
quote:
Are the guys that are going forward and hanging...increasing bevel before they give up?
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS just curious!
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Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
Yep, you probably need to do this. I used to have almost no bevel, but as I've gone forward my bevel has also increased.
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Will Jesus bring the pork chops?
Post by: Steven on December 15, 2005, 10:50:19 AM
I guess one of the bigger problems is that every time I get into pitch experimentation, I feel like I've stepped in quicksand. All changes feel different and require time to give a fair evaluation, and that's just tough to do during league/tournament season. One change begets another change which begets another, and then I don't where I'm at with anything. Couple that with having too many balls and all the hassle of mass conversion, and well, you get the picture.
I really might hunt Ron down next summer when the time for potential change is more appropriate.
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"Sometimes, the best move is the one we don't make"
Post by: Ragnar on December 15, 2005, 10:52:36 AM
quote:
all the hassle of mass conversion...
LOL. Right now I have about 15 balls in the basement. Probably have at least 4 different thumb pitches amongst them.
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Will Jesus bring the pork chops?
Post by: Sawuser on December 15, 2005, 10:53:08 AM
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Wayne
FOS HARD CORE MEMBER
Diamond Cutter
And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgement
Post by: Ragnar on December 15, 2005, 10:56:44 AM
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Will Jesus bring the pork chops?
Post by: LuckyLefty on December 15, 2005, 10:58:50 AM
For those that can't do it...same amount of bevel and same span?
REgards,
Luckylefty
--------------------
Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
Post by: Sawuser on December 15, 2005, 11:20:50 AM
--------------------
Wayne
FOS HARD CORE MEMBER
Diamond Cutter
And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgement
Post by: Nollster on December 15, 2005, 11:35:31 AM
--------------------
Nollster
Summer league (http://"http://www.allbowling.com/journal/public.php?uid=419&leagueid=13")
Winter League (http://"http://www.allbowling.com/journal/public.php?uid=419&leagueid=277")
Post by: a_ak57 on December 15, 2005, 12:44:57 PM
quote:
If you change your pitches like this, your going to also need to change your spans some or use alot of bevel. you just can't go a ton forward without a change in span, unless you wan't to put a huge bevel on the lip.
The 63 degree thumb angle is still the only proven way to produce a perfect fit with no thumb hang or drag. If your going to go that much forward, you should look into getting your span as close to the 63 degree chat as you can.
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Bowling Sometimes Is Fun...
I know that's "The Rule" and is accepted by many, but that seems EXTREMELY cookie cutter-like to me to declare that a certain thing is perfect for everyone.
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- Andy
Post by: Magic Carpet on December 15, 2005, 01:38:47 PM
Give me a ball with a "CORRECT" span. (The IPSCA standard or what ever it is called...no need to change span unless is was different from the standard)
Dill the thumb pitch 3/8 forward with a span of 5 inches or less.
I will bet $100 I can have the bowler throwing the ball better than before (unles he is great already, I don't think I would take this challenge with Tommy Jones and I have no idea what his thumb pitch is.
I think this would make a good challenge for the next gathering.
Ron Clifton
Changing the world 1 thumb hole at the time
Post by: LuckyLefty on December 15, 2005, 02:04:14 PM
where is it? (stop....I found it)!
Also...Sawuser...no bevel...lots of forward...let's get to it....Did you shorten your span when you went forward?
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS my experience with the guys in our houses that went forward and left span the same is ever one got tingling and black mark on thumbs. A very small amount of front bevel increase solved the problem.
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Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
Edited on 12/15/2005 2:54 PM
Post by: a_ak57 on December 15, 2005, 02:10:59 PM
quote:
I use 1/8 forward with 1/4 left lateral. In my case I feel the left lateral does as much for my release as the 1/8 forward does. I feel i am as clean out of the ball as a no thumber (lol that is how easy my thumb exits the ball) The lateral left for me takes a lot of pressure off the thumb and my wrist
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Triggerman
Captain of the Bomb Squad
Chicks Dig guys who throw the Diamondswe fight Dirty.
Nothing left to discuss
www.bowlingballexchange.com
www.bowlingkingdom.com
Trigg, like I told you before you are just a freak of nature. Guys, what he fails to tell you is he somehow uses 1/8 forward with a 5 1/4" span. And according to the charts from Bill Taylor that's just amazing.
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- Andy
Post by: DukeHarding on December 15, 2005, 02:27:57 PM
I than inserted the Magic Carpet, about 3/16 of an inch down in the hole.
Took a piece of Vise Tape, cut it to the proper length...rounded the front of the tape with scissors. I applied the tape (rounded end) to my thumb nail, stretched the tape tight down along the thumb. I super glued the tape to my thumb nail with a clue called Lock Tite, which comes with a brush.
The tape stayed on my thumb for 8 games.
The ball felt like it connected to my hand...I didn't have to hold on to it.
When it came to my ankle area, I knew I couldn't whack the ball, or hit pup on it...The ball came clean off my hand, with increased revs. I've been working on finding a better fit for 4 years. It was absolutely amazing...I really, deep down inside thought I would never get out of the ball. Looking at videotape of my release, I had been hitting up on the ball slightly...lofting maybe 2-3 feet (low) on the lane.
Now the problem is: "Getting all the balls in my arsenal to feel the same."
--------------------
Duke Harding
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Bowling Coaches Web Site Link (http://"http://www.bowlingcoach.com/")
"Anyone who stops learning is old, whether at twenty or eighty.
Anyone who keeps learning stays young.
The greatest thing in life is to keep your mind young." -- Henry Ford
Post by: Sawuser on December 15, 2005, 03:37:50 PM
REgards,
Luckylefty
Yes, accordingly. I do not have lots of forward, 1/4 is the most I have tried.
But that is why I stated the span & pitch must be correct. My overall span was shortened about 1/4" from a stretch to a relaxed span.
--------------------
Wayne
FOS HARD CORE MEMBER
Diamond Cutter
And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgement
Post by: Phillip Marlowe on December 15, 2005, 03:43:20 PM
quote:
Just give me a bowler using reverse pitch.
Give me a ball with a "CORRECT" span. (The IPSCA standard or what ever it is called...no need to change span unless is was different from the standard)
Dill the thumb pitch 3/8 forward with a span of 5 inches or less.
I will bet $100 I can have the bowler throwing the ball better than before (unles he is great already, I don't think I would take this challenge with Tommy Jones and I have no idea what his thumb pitch is.
I think this would make a good challenge for the next gathering.
Ron Clifton
Changing the world 1 thumb hole at the time
You tell me where and I'll be there...
[Ron C and Phillip stand, staring at each other, with the theme from "The Good, The Bad and The Ugly" playing in the background, until a new ball is drilled and thrown....]
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"Some guys get the world. Other guys get ex-hookers and a trip to Arizona."
Edited on 12/15/2005 4:34 PM
Post by: LuckyLefty on December 15, 2005, 09:13:34 PM
Span length?
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS sawuser...span length.
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Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
Post by: Strider on December 15, 2005, 09:52:40 PM
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Penn State Proud
Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive (http://"http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm")
Post by: Nollster on December 16, 2005, 08:08:05 AM
) when doing small muscle work, like writing. My point being, as you increase the forward pitch, won't you get to a point where you may get out of the ball cleanly, but may experience hand pain from the cramped position of the hand?? Kind of like continually picking up a pencil with just your bowling fingers and thumb?--------------------
Nollster
Summer league (http://"http://www.allbowling.com/journal/public.php?uid=419&leagueid=13")
Winter League (http://"http://www.allbowling.com/journal/public.php?uid=419&leagueid=277")
Post by: Magic Carpet on December 16, 2005, 10:13:46 AM
No because your hand is not closed up that tight, like when using a pen.
Just relax your hand and look at it. Does the thumb point backward or forward?
If I look at the thumb side of my hand with it in a relaxed position my thumb points well forward and the rest of my fingers kind of curl in to form a “Câ€.
I look at forward and reverse pitch like palming a ball. The more reverse you have the more you are trying to palm a basketball. The more forward you have the more it is like palming a softball, which everyone can do.
Is there a limit? Yes and you will know you have hit the limit when you start having trouble clearing ether the front edge of the thumb hole or the back of the thumb hole with your nail.
Someone mentioned Bill Taylor’s chart above. Well Bill and I both say nearly the same thing in regards to forward pitch. “You keep moving more forward until you hang and then back up a notchâ€. Bill says back up 1/16 and I say back up 1/8. That is t he only place where we differ. Bill’s chart is just a starting point not an ending point. Most ball drillers have taken Bill’s chart and added ¼ more reverse to it anyway.
I don’t know if Bill Taylor has ever written the above statement anywhere or if that is what he teaches in his clinics. He may reserve that statement for more expert bowlers. I found out what Taylor believes through working with Eric Forkel. Of the many things we changed in Eric’s game a few months ago, one was his thumb pitches.
Eric had 1/8 reverse when we started and we drilled balls all the way up to 5/8 forward. He threw 5/8 forward very well but I think he finely decided on 5/16 forward. He was afraid if he went much more forward and was bowling on TV for a title he would get nervous and squeeze the ball too much; launching it through the ceiling. That would never happen but I could never convince him of that. The guy had bowled on TV 28 times I don’t think he will get THAT nervous.
In our discussions on forward pitch he told me that Bill Taylor had told him the same thing years ago. Keep going forward until you hang and then back up a notch. Eric has worked with nearly every “famous†couch in the country and spent a lot of time with Bill Taylor so he knows Bills thoughts on the subject.
Bowl great!
Ron Clifton
Post by: Brickguy221 on December 16, 2005, 10:27:29 AM
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Brick
Post by: Nollster on December 16, 2005, 11:14:50 AM
quote:
In reading all of the posts here on the subject of forward pitch, there is the group that has tried it (like myself) and it didn't work even with span and bevel adjustments/changes and then there is the group that tried it, it worked, and they love it thinking that is the only way. For the group that forward pitch works for, hey that is great and I wish I could use forward pitch also, but unfortunately I and others here can't use forward pitch, so quit thinking that just because it works for you that it will work for everyone, because it won't. If that was the only way to go, wouldn't all of the Pros be using forward pitch?
Of course that's the case -- that's what makes this such a great debate!! I went to forward pitches after talking/working with Ron and it's been great for me. I also recommend people take a look at moving their pitches forward based on my experiences with it. I caution them it may not work for them and to not just change their whole arsenal until they've found what will work best for them. If it doesn't work, no biggie. If it does, that's fine too. I just know I have no hand, thumb, finger issues since going to the forward pitch and, combined with Magic Carpet, have a super clean release. Why not share if it will help others??
--------------------
Nollster
Summer league (http://"http://www.allbowling.com/journal/public.php?uid=419&leagueid=13")
Winter League (http://"http://www.allbowling.com/journal/public.php?uid=419&leagueid=277")
Post by: LuckyLefty on December 16, 2005, 05:16:56 PM
Ron C is correct. I attended a Bill Taylor Seminar and he said just that...go forward and back. He stated his 63 degree tables were a good starting point and that many experienced bowlers go forward.
He also stated that Mike Durbin(a student at that time) did some of his best bowling in the 1/2 forward area.
He also still explained that the 63 degree tables mean very long spans hardly ever get to forward. Forward is not the goal. Forward of the tables is usually a place many good bowlers get too...but it is flexibility driven.
On the flip side I have a good friend that went dramatically forward along the matter described above and then backed off.
Under pressure he would tighten up and slightly hand and get near knuckleballs.
We got him back still more forward than tables but just slightly and his considerable average has risen quite a bit with a few other changes.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS the view of a trained pro like Ron(Magic C) tells all. Remember Forward get s the thumb to come out slower. Reverse faster. Same with fingers. The timing of the two elements is key....if thumb is coming out too slow and fingers too fast one can almost get a tie between thumb fingers timing. One might as well be throwing a conventional. I had a friend recently with decent revs...no backend. We noticed hand was jammed in ball(very short and overrelaxed span). Thumb and fingers both coming out of ball at same time. Lengthened span 1/8(still a relaxed fingertip)...increased reverse 1/16...and the result of thumb and then finger release happened and voila revs and backend dramatically increased. He is scaring everyone in the area with his improved ball roll ie the goal is not FORWARD Pitch...the goal is proper timing between the thumb and fingers for what you are trying to achieve with ball roll!
PPS ie super high backswings et al and downward forces at release. Jason Couch's pitches were in AMERICAN bowler about 3 years ago. In it he stated because of incredibly high backswing he needed forward way in front of the tables to hold on to the ball until the time he wanted to release...I think his span was near 4 1/2 and pitch like 7/16 forward. Tables say 1/8 reverse. All in what goal or timing you are trying to achieve in YOUR release!
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Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
Edited on 12/16/2005 6:18 PM
Post by: LuckyLefty on December 19, 2005, 11:04:05 AM
Please note that the tables are designed for a position of 63 degrees. This 63 degree angle is measured as an angle of a straight line from the front edge of fingers to the thumb hole and then the angle is measured between the front edge of thumbhole and this line.
It is easy to see that this is nowhere near 90 degrees ie thumb pointing backwards. In fact it is over 45 degrees and way less than 90 degrees. One must realize that if one has a 3 1/2 inch span then the tables say forward reverse for the thumb should be ....
3/8 forward. 4 inch span tables say 1/8 forward.
If one looks at their hand one sees that a natural ball shaped cup with a staright wrist..(just held in air) puts ones thumb more than 45 degrees and way less than 90...somewhere near 60 degrees. 60 degrees on a 4 1/2 inch span is about 0 pitch.. When one takes their hand and goes more forward of the 60 degree angle area(say near 45) I feel cramped just holding my hand in the air.
A hand held in the greater than 45 degree but way less than 90 degrees(thumb to hand body position ends up very similar very similar to the thumb angle the tables would place in the ball.
Now for a competing method...That says forward reverse span should be based on one factor...thumb flexibility... See my
Bunneta Method post (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=107826&ForumID=18&CategoryID=5").
This is actually similar but different than what Ron is saying. The Bunneta method puts a person no matter what span is with always the same thumb position based on one thumb test for forward reverse.
REgards,
Luckylefty
This met
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Proud owner of a 140 first game average this year! Don't bowl me the second two games though! (two warm up balls in league..thanks proprietors)
Edited on 12/19/2005 11:54 AM
Edited on 12/19/2005 11:57 AM