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Author Topic: Ok...if CG location doesn't matter, then...  (Read 12728 times)

Musky300

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Ok...if CG location doesn't matter, then...
« on: April 15, 2007, 11:58:00 PM »
...Does that mean the entire "degree layout" system is pointless?

The degree layout is based on the angle from the Pin-to-PAP and from the the Pin-to-CG (or MB).  If the secondary location of the CG/MB doesn't matter...then are all the articles I've read in BTM and all the talk I've heard from pro shop operators completely irrelevant???

I am confused on this and maybe I'm missing something...but that would mean you would only need to worry about the position of the Pin in relation to the PAP and not much else.  Correct???

 

triggerman

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Re: Ok...if CG location doesn't matter, then...
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2007, 03:52:01 PM »
Thanks LL
I only posted it as I feel (my opinion) that the whole cgnomaddah thing is going to lead to a great disservice to the bowling community, although starting cg location has been proven that it matters minimally (although hit is visibly different to me) we have to consider ending cg location when drilling, by telling the general public and drillers that the cg location doesnt matter, i think you are going to see another stong influx of label drilled balls as uneducated (read, not up to the latest and greatest info, not necessarily bad at what they do)will just tell their customer that cg doesnt matter and start doing the whole label thing agian.  when in reality that starting point of cg location dictates tremendously where one will end up at after all drilling is done.  and one does not have to drill into the core to alter reaction, a big shallow hole will do more to a ball then a small deep on

from the stand point of defining a reacttion, starting position of cg matters greatly.  this argument of whether it matters or not, took the wrong direction, it is where that mass ends up at that will dicate the end movement of that ball, and because of that CG location and starting top weight need to be considered along with depth of fingers/thumb and location of x hole to fine tune

anytime you remove mass for an unbalanced item to balance it, you have basically moved that mass to a another location by removing it from one.  this can all be done without ever altering the cores shape via a wieght hole
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LuckyLefty

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Re: Ok...if CG location doesn't matter, then...
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2007, 04:39:09 PM »
Trigg...you and I are in agreement!

OF course I believe pin to pap(and pin location high/low)_ and surface matter a ton also!

REgards,

Luckylefty
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It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

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triggerman

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Re: Ok...if CG location doesn't matter, then...
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2007, 08:11:09 PM »
quote:
Trigg...you and I are in agreement!

OF course I believe pin to pap(and pin location high/low)_ and surface matter a ton also!

REgards,

Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..


abxolutely, but that ending cg location which is indicitive of ending statics help define ball shape
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laufaye

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Re: Ok...if CG location doesn't matter, then...
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2007, 09:06:12 PM »
Trig and LL,

Glad to see both of you agreeing on somthing.

Trig, the CG location is important for a driller to layout a ball to accomplish a certain reaction, basically weight hole or not, if yes weight hole, where to put it, that can be plan ahead to where to place the CG.  However, there are still a lot of bowlers believe and asking the driller to drill a ball as much side weight as possible.  The Brunswick video bsically is to point out there is no advantage or disadvantage to have positive or negative side weight.

LL, if you can tell the difference between 3/4 and 1/2 side weight in ball reaction, good for you, I just can't, I can't tell the difference in pin placement between 4" and 4 1/16" from PAP, I also cannot tell the diff between 1000 abralon and 1010 abralon.

Please don't jump on me, no disrespect there, just expressng what I believe.
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Borincano

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Re: Ok...if CG location doesn't matter, then...
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2007, 09:18:23 PM »
In todays bowling balls I will have to say that the CG is just a reference point in regards to the location of the top weight of the bowling ball. Without this reference point we will not know where the top weight is located and use it as a index as to how much weight needs to be taken out in relation to the cg location. For me the location of the pin indicates the location of the core mass, the cover of the bowling ball and how you deliver the ball down the lane dictates the action of the bowling ball.

To me the CG is just a reference point of what has to be done to define the static weights around the ball. The location of the core mass in relation to your grip line, using the pin as reference, the cover and your release is what really determines the reaction of the bowling ball.

LuckyLefty

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Re: Ok...if CG location doesn't matter, then...
« Reply #36 on: April 20, 2007, 10:55:38 AM »
Please let me clarify....

FOR ME...and MY ball roll High tracker lots of axis rotation with too little tilt!

Balls that are drilled stacked or cg out seem to work usually the best for me.

I've had difficulty with cg on grip center(0 sideweight).  I seem to get a really weird reaction!  Almost never works for me...I've tried many pin positions with these drills also and surfaces!

YET with balls with some side weight 3/4 or a lot of side weight pre weight hole I get a very powerful roll heavy roll(particularly with some oil coverage in the heads and midlanes!).  I seem to almost always need ENDING CG that is both side, top, and finger on the majority of conditions to get me the distance and hit I need!

I'm sure Richie Sposato or TGOD could explain it to me.  Two experts on the Gravity Balance system.

REGArds,

Luckylefty
PS I caught the sarcasm and frankly never worry about such fine gradations!
I use balls with 600 grit, 1500 grit, 2000 polished....standard differences..
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strikealot

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Re: Ok...if CG location doesn't matter, then...
« Reply #37 on: April 20, 2007, 11:09:01 AM »
not to hijack...but what is the gravity balance system, this is new to me...and i consider myself fairly knowledgeable...
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storm834jk

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Re: Ok...if CG location doesn't matter, then...
« Reply #38 on: April 20, 2007, 11:19:18 AM »
Doug Ill have to agree with you on this, Brunswick needs to nut up or shut up, Rick Benoit came out to MN a few weeks ago and did a presentation on layouts and some really crazy stuff. We all paid to watch this seminar and get some good drilling info and all he did was show us some EXOTIC things he has done to a bowling ball, and i mean exotic, Like taking a 1.5" drill bit and drilling all the way to the core then drilling 2 finger holes the same size to the core, he made a 15.5 lb ball 14 lbs....to prove that the weight block did matter, well no crap! It just seems like all these test they are running are way outside of USBC rules and no drillers like our selves would ever drill these things for ourselves or our customers.
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LuckyLefty

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Re: Ok...if CG location doesn't matter, then...
« Reply #39 on: April 20, 2007, 11:30:42 AM »
Gravity balance system used to be offered by Lane1 and maybe still is.

It explains how to fine tune reactions based on Ending statics  or ENDING CG.

The best guys to explain the system I mentioned above.

It also allows one to predict based on current CG position after fingers and thumb are drilled how to calculate exactly where to put a weighthole to create a certain ending CG position.

By many modern ball drillers and current theorists it is considered..."Yesterday's news".  

REgards,

Luckylefty
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

strikealot

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Re: Ok...if CG location doesn't matter, then...
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2007, 11:37:02 AM »
thanks LL


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myspace profile...
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Edited on 4/20/2007 11:36 AM
~<:-0======"IN CG WE TRUST" i chant as i pray to the static weight God...======

triggerman

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Re: Ok...if CG location doesn't matter, then...
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2007, 11:43:07 AM »
lane #1 still has the system for pro shops, still great info even by todays standards
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strikealot

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Re: Ok...if CG location doesn't matter, then...
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2007, 11:49:48 AM »
i drill my own stuff....is there anyway i can get some more information on this...i would like to read more about it..
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Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now!
myspace profile...
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current arsenal

  super carbide bomb
  solid cobalt
  tsunami
  black xxxl
  raw toxic
  total NV
  smashtime pearl
  black ice

MEMBER OF THE F.O.S.

Edited on 4/20/2007 11:49 AM
~<:-0======"IN CG WE TRUST" i chant as i pray to the static weight God...======

LuckyLefty

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Re: Ok...if CG location doesn't matter, then...
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2007, 11:52:03 AM »
I purchased the gravity balance system from Lane#1's website for $99
years ago.

Got some individual instruction over the phone from Richie Sposato also!

Cool.

REgards,

Luckylefty
--------------------
Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

triggerman

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Re: Ok...if CG location doesn't matter, then...
« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2007, 11:52:36 AM »
http://lane1bowling.com/acc/gravbal.html
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Triggerman

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strikealot

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Re: Ok...if CG location doesn't matter, then...
« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2007, 11:59:44 AM »
thanks trigg but the part that "says not for sale to general public" kind of leaves me out...although i do run a small proshop out of my house...
--------------------
Hard work pays off in the future, laziness pays off now!
myspace profile...
 http://www.myspace.com/chad__gordon  
 
http://

current arsenal

  super carbide bomb
  solid cobalt
  tsunami
  black xxxl
  raw toxic
  total NV
  smashtime pearl
  black ice

MEMBER OF THE F.O.S.
~<:-0======"IN CG WE TRUST" i chant as i pray to the static weight God...======