Post by: Jay on July 03, 2008, 06:54:37 PM
Thoughts?
Post by: charlest on July 04, 2008, 06:46:03 AM
BUT if you want to bowl good tournaments or National torunaments or PBA tournaments or PBA Experience leagues, then, more than likely, if you did, you might not have the versatility and flexibility to score well. There's a remote chance, though, if you have a lot of release changes (4 - 8 skilled ones) in your repertoire.
Otherwise, there are so many things they can do with oil patterns these days, you need a wide variety of ball reactions to succeed.
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Post by: dizzyfugu on July 04, 2008, 07:07:30 AM
While there is IMHO nothing wrong with a personal "standard" drilling (my favorite is a 4.5" from PAP pin above the fingers, CG stacked), I'd suggest having at least the more extreme balls drilled up for their specific purpose, to exploit the ball's and your potential with it. There are times when you really need a different reaction shape on the condition at hand, and if you have complemtary/differing options in the bag (or through the release), this makes life much easier. IMO, a standard drilling arsenal just leaves too little room, even though you can surely do something though different surface preps. But the drilling gives an additional adge that I would not underestimate or neglect.
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Post by: Grayson on July 04, 2008, 07:44:50 AM
I have seen balls... the drilling was completely the opposite this ball was "meant" to be... I've seen smooth drillings on backend balls and the other way round...
then I think about the state:
"you cannot make a smooth ball flip and a smoothing out a flip ball is just waste of potential"
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Post by: AngloBowler on July 04, 2008, 08:02:05 AM
I had my tropical storm drilled pin in palm and didn't get on with it at all, lots of over/under and lacking power at the headpin.
I'm trying to illustrate that it is possible to drill a ball against it's natural characteristics and have good results, but bad ones can occur also. I, generally, prefer the 5.5" pin above the fingers (have it on three balls) each one gives me a specific look based and they are different enough to give me substantively different reactions.
A lot of care has to go into the choice of ball and drilling considering what you want from the ball. I've been told by a coach of mine that in order to compete on tougher patterns at higher standard tournaments, a 6 ball arsenal is recommended. If you only have one release, then you would need another ball for specific scenarios, but if you can achieve the results physically, then that's less weight to carry around...
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Post by: Oldskool2 on July 04, 2008, 08:29:24 AM
There are people who do the exact opposite. I can remember that Chitown had a whole arsenal build with the Doom, just with different layouts and coverstock finish. I think this will give a wider range in your arsenal.
I let it drill like Dizzyfugu and let the layout bring out the characteristics of the ball.
I don't understand why people drill a strong ball weak. Why don't buy a weaker ball then. There must be a good explanation, because enough people do this.
When I read why Dan Belcher did this with his Cell it makes sence, but normally I would say use the full potential of the ball.
Post by: chitown on July 04, 2008, 11:08:07 AM
Currently i'm using the same exact pin placement on all my equipment. I may change the CG and or MB and add or not add a balance hole but the pin placement is going to stay the exact same.
If you drill all your equipment with the same exact layout your still going to see a difference between each ball. Let the cover and cores seperate the reactions.
Now if your going to build a complete arsenal out of one ball (3 or more)like I did with my all DOOM arsenal then different layouts are a must. If your going to drill two of the same ball and have different cover grits then using the same layout is a great idea.
Edited on 7/4/2008 11:13 AM
Post by: chitown on July 04, 2008, 11:27:54 AM
quote:
I don't understand why people drill a strong ball weak. Why don't buy a weaker ball then. There must be a good explanation, because enough people do this.
When I read why Dan Belcher did this with his Cell it makes sence, but normally I would say use the full potential of the ball.
I think it all depends on ones approach to drilling up an arsenal.
I build a new arsenal every summer so it's ready for the season. I've approached this a few different ways. As you know I built an entire arsenal out of the same ball with different layouts and cover preps. I still loved that all DOOM arsenal.
I've used the same exact layout on all my equipment and let the covers and cores separate the reactions. This is where the strong ball drilled weak comes into play. Even with the same layout, each ball is still going to show it's own characteristics.
I've tried the approach of drilling each ball different and for what's it's designed to do. I don't like this approach because some of the layouts just don't fit my game and are hard to control.
This game for me is about scoring high and making money in pots/brackets ect... . My best bowling success came from using the same exact layout on all my equipment and letting the covers and cores separate the reactions. That's pretty much the approach i'm taking for this upcoming season.
On a side note: I think too many bowlers put too much into layouts. I think coverstock is king! I truely feel if one were to buy 4 different bowling balls with different types of coverstock and used the exact same layout, they would have one hell of an arsenal. Just let the cover and cores seperate the reactions.
Edited on 7/4/2008 11:33 AM
Post by: stormed1 on July 04, 2008, 11:39:59 AM
Post by: CPA on July 04, 2008, 11:49:27 AM
Also, I have found certain layouts work well for me on PBA patterns and other layouts work well on house shots. If money were no object, a person could prepare one arsenal for PBA patterns and another arsenal for house shots. Most of us cannot do that. I have found I can make the layouts that I use on PBA patterns work on house shots, but I cannot make house shot layouts work on PBA patterns. As I drill new equipment, I am gradually moving all of my equipment to PBA shot layouts. Then using variations in the cover, and core, for different reactions.
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Post by: Dan Belcher on July 04, 2008, 02:29:16 PM
quote:If I take a weaker ball and drill it strong, it's going to respond too quickly to friction for me, and it won't have the same strong cover that gives me a good read through oil and a rolly reaction off the dry. Using weak drills on strong equipment gives me more predictability and better pin action since I don't like a ball that turns left as soon as it hits dry. I personally hate strong drilled equipment for the most part -- I always face overreaction and burnup whenever I get the ball out of the oil.
I don't understand why people drill a strong ball weak. Why don't buy a weaker ball then. There must be a good explanation, because enough people do this.
When I read why Dan Belcher did this with his Cell it makes sence, but normally I would say use the full potential of the ball.
Post by: Jay on July 04, 2008, 04:53:06 PM
.All good points made by everyone here. I guess once again it will depend on the bowler when it comes to layouts. Notice I asked if it would be good for everything in your arsenal except the true oiler and dry lane ball. I did that because for me, I'd want a strong layout for true heavy oil and a really weak one for super dry lanes. Everything in between having the same layout would be awesome in my opinion. I just can't tell if I have more success with a particular pin placement, because I've never had the same one twice and all my equipment in the last two years has been good for me, as long as the surface prep was right.
Post by: Oldskool2 on July 04, 2008, 04:55:02 PM
quote:Quote
If I take a weaker ball and drill it strong, it's going to respond too quickly to friction for me, and it won't have the same strong cover that gives me a good read through oil and a rolly reaction off the dry. Using weak drills on strong equipment gives me more predictability and better pin action since I don't like a ball that turns left as soon as it hits dry. I personally hate strong drilled equipment for the most part -- I always face overreaction and burnup whenever I get the ball out of the oil.
Dan, what would you consider as a weak drilling?
I personally don't like the snap in the back either. I just can't get a hold of it. I love to see this reaction with others, but I need control and predictability.
When I thought this over , I was thinking of a layout with the pin beside or in the ringfinger. Is it true this is kind of neutral and for control?
Antoine
Post by: Dan Belcher on July 04, 2008, 05:48:51 PM
Edit -- here's a picture of my Cell (plus a sweet Cell keychain that my ball driller got for me
) http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/6016/cellandsweetkeychainuj0.jpg Bear in mind the same drilling may look different for you if your PAP is not the same as mine. My pap is roughly 5 1/4" over by 3/4" up, though the vertical may chance a little depending on my hand positionEdited on 7/4/2008 7:12 PM
Post by: Jay on July 05, 2008, 02:32:33 AM
I ask because I consider myself slightly rev dominant, and I could possibly use different distances to my advantage. A lot of the time, my equipment reacts more to try than I'd like. Is that what flare affects? You also said you could alternate between pin up and pin down. Are you saying you like putting your pins in the same position as your Cell has except above the ring, and that would give you the 5" pin to PAP?
My favorite ball right now actually has that particular pin placement(above the ring) but for me that's 4.5" from my PAP since my coordinates are smaller. That must mean pins over my middle will give me around 5" but I don't know where it'd have to go when under the fingers to be 5".
Anyways, I'm just saying it seems that someone like me could use longer pin to PAP distances to have more control. At least that's what seems would be a good idea with anything except a heavy oil ball and a dry lane ball. Would 2" pin to PAP layouts be good for that dry lane ball?
Post by: Dan Belcher on July 05, 2008, 10:58:25 AM
I actually rarely see truly heavy, heavy oil, and when I do I can just move right, keep my hand up the back of the ball more, and slow down. I don't need to hook it, I just need to create entry angle and roll. I was throwing it damn near straight the other day on the Shark playing outside, but hey, it worked. I use the Cell for anything from medium conditions when there's carrydown all the way up to heavy oil. The ball doesn't overreact in the midlane with this drill, but also doesn't rely on clean backends to make its move. That's the exact reaction I wanted from it. I need to bring my camera with me to the lanes on a few different conditions so I can show people the kind of reaction it gives me.
Post by: Jay on July 05, 2008, 02:29:03 PM
By the way, I was thinking, how relevant is pin placement in relation to the fingers really? I've been told it doesn't matter and the dual angle system suggests that it doesn't, but the way I've been taught does. If I want a 5" pin to PAP there's actually quite a few different pin placements you can use I think. But they would give you different drilling angles and/or angles to the VAL, giving you different reactions.
Post by: Dan Belcher on July 05, 2008, 02:53:28 PM
quote:I've never seen a condition so slick I couldn't get the ball to move at least that much. Even on the fresh Shark I bowled on the other night, where EVERYONE had trouble getting the ball to hook except the super high rev guys, I still was getting probably 3 or 4 boards of movement total. I was just playing very direct from the outside part of the lane. 6 at the arrows, 11 or 12 at the breakpoint type of deal. And those were the slickest lanes I've ever seen. (And I've bowled on double oil before!)
Interesting approach to true heavy lanes. I prefer to have at least three boards of hook at any given time though.
Post by: janderson on July 05, 2008, 06:48:30 PM
quote:
BUT if you want to bowl good tournaments or National torunaments or PBA tournaments or PBA Experience leagues, then, more than likely, if you did, you might not have the versatility and flexibility to score well. There's a remote chance, though, if you have a lot of release changes (4 - 8 skilled ones) in your repertoire.
Consider that you don't see successful touring pros and top-level amateurs running for the bag as the first adjustment. The touring pros and top-level amateurs whom I know use pretty much the same layout on every piece of equipment and adjust or exchange surface. Excepting, as Strike Domination said in the original post, for the extremes.
Don't forget different lines of equipment have different cores. So even with the same layout, they won't necessarily behave the same.
The top bowlers often have recourse to ball reps. The ball changes, the surface changes, but the layout generally doesn't. It is not true for every bowler, but it can work.
Generally speaking, high trackers will find that ball surface plays a larger role in ball reaction than layout. IMO even low trackers will find that surface players a larger roll in ball reaction than layout, but to a lesser degree than high trackers.
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Edited on 7/7/2008 10:16 AM
Post by: Jay on July 06, 2008, 02:34:36 AM
quote:
Generally speaking, high trackers will find that ball surface plays a larger role in ball reaction than layout. IMO even low trackers will find that surface players a larger roll in ball reaction that layout, but to a lesser degree.
I'm a high tracker so that's pretty good to know. When you mention that, I actually really believe it, at least for me, because as soon as my Rival was resurfaced to 2000 instead of 4000 I immediately saw the nice even roll with an arcing backend that I originally wanted out of the ball. At box finish it gave me more backend than I'd hoped for.
Dan, when you put it that way I should at least say 5 boards of movement is comfortable. Pointing torwards the pocket like you were is not something I like doing, but you gotta do what you gotta do to get to the pocket. If I remember correctly the pocket is on board 17 right? If so, I was getting 6-7 boards of hook on a good shot when I last played the shark. I guess what I disliked more than a little lack of hook was the fact that it was tight, but for some reason I don't mind it being that tight on the shorter patterns. I guess it's just the fact that I'm never really sure it will come back. But yeah, 5 boards at least is my comfort zone, even if I have to point it. I need a true oiler because my Rival is not meant to handle that much oil, only Medium to Medium-Heavy which is what I'd call the shark.
Anyways, I'm still wondering about what different pin placements relative to the fingers mean. I know that generally under the fingers means an earlier roll and above them means more length. I think next to the ring means a more violent response from the breakpoint. But I don't know about the exact locations such as above ring vs above middle, etc. Also, the further your grip is away from the cg what happens besides possibly needing a balance hole? I'm used to just going by the dual angle layout system and pin/CG/MB placement is all a result of the angles you choose. I don't believe you could keep a certain pin placement without changing both angles.
Post by: dizzyfugu on July 07, 2008, 08:55:56 AM
quote:
Generally speaking, high trackers will find that ball surface plays a larger role in ball reaction than layout. IMO even low trackers will find that surface players a larger roll in ball reaction that layout, but to a lesser degree.
I can confirm this - having a high track, too, I find that surface prep is a very good means of fine-tuning a ball and adjusting its usability. With the pin placement (and also MB), you determine when and how the core works for you, which is a very basic thing. But the surface and its changes can have major effects, even ruining the ball for you if you do not match up properly, and I found that high trackers are more prone to "suffer" from this factor than low track players, who generate good natural length through their style.
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