win a ball from Bowling.com

Author Topic: Sanctioning Organizations vs Governing Bodies  (Read 2788 times)

Scott Scriver

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 185
Sanctioning Organizations vs Governing Bodies
« on: May 12, 2005, 02:53:39 PM »
With the latest USBC turmoil and proposed changes, I would like to get everyones opinion on a few things:

1. Should a "governing body" (USBC) be allowed to dictate how others do business within the industry?

Take for example one of the latest USBC Proposals:

The USBC Logo and "born on" date must be placed any newly manufactured bowling ball

In my opinion, USBC is in no position to mandate this. Having your logo placed on equipment is an honor and earned by gaining respect. It is NOT something you can mandate.

2. Would bowlers be open to a "Sanctioning" Organization?

One that does NOT try to dictate how other companies run their business, but one that is made up BY bowlers FOR bowlers and everything about it would be designed for the bowler.

3. If a new "Sanctioning" organization was created, what are your thoughts on what it should provide. (Awards, League Insurance, Average Rating etc.)

I am just curious as to everyones thoughts on these and any other insights you may have.

Thanks,

--------------------
Scott Scriver
http://www.virtualtournaments.com
http://www.LeagueSecretary.com

 

shelley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9655
Re: Sanctioning Organizations vs Governing Bodies
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2005, 12:34:10 AM »
quote:

The USBC Logo and "born on" date must be placed any newly manufactured bowling ball

In my opinion, USBC is in no position to mandate this. Having your logo placed on equipment is an honor and earned by gaining respect. It is NOT something you can mandate.



I agree with this.  All it would take to shoot this down is for the ball manufacturers to decide not to do it.  If the big four manufacturers (Brunswick, Columbia, Ebonite, and Storm) said they weren't going to retool their lines to put the marks on, I seriously doubt that the USBC would deny approval to every ball that was put up.

quote:

2. Would bowlers be open to a "Sanctioning" Organization?

One that does NOT try to dictate how other companies run their business, but one that is made up BY bowlers FOR bowlers and everything about it would be designed for the bowler.



The problem with this is that if the sanctioning organization is large enough, as measured by the number of sanctioned leagues and bowlers, then it would be foolish for the companies to not listen to them.  Ball manufacturers could start putting out balls with too-high diffs or too-soft covers and simply say that they're not approved for sanctioned competition.  The problem is that the people who would buy the balls are looking for something that's usable in sanctioned competition.

From that perspective, it makes sense for the companies to listen to the sanctioning body.  However, it is also up to the sanctioning body to be have reasonable approval rules.  In particular (and I think that's one of two major problems with the proposed changes), the changes are too much, too fast.  (The other problem being that they're too ineffective).  

But just as the companies have a responsibility towards the sanctioned bowlers, so do the sanctioned bowlers have a responsibility towards the manufacturers.  They have a responsibility not to unduly interfere with their business.

quote:

3. If a new "Sanctioning" organization was created, what are your thoughts on what it should provide. (Awards, League Insurance, Average Rating etc.)



I mostly like the awards system as it is, even though I'm not going to be eligible for any of my milestones (average 1 pin too high for my first 225+ game, a 245, and probably gonna be a couple pins too high for my first 600).  I like the average verification and if I were more involved in the business side of running a league, I'd probably like the insurance.

What I don't like is that the governing body is too far removed from the bowlers.  Many local officials (again, this is around here) are "old-timers" with sufficient time on thier hands to do the work and as a result, they have very antiquated ideas about how people should bowl.  If it were up to them, we'd all be using rubber balls because that's how they did it in their day.  I don't like that, it's stagnant.

Furthermore, I think it's a mistake to lump ALL bowlers together when they have such widely differing interests in the sport.  "Typical" league bowlers want to have fun and score high while serious competitive bowlers want integrity and emphasis on skill (I still think they should have their own game that directly rewards consistency and shotmaking that doesn't rely on unreliable measures like pin-count).  Sport Bowling is a good idea, but it's not as widely available as it should be.  It needs to be easier and cheaper to sanction a sport league, and it may be, now that slightly different rules are in effect.  Again, it's a lot on the local officials and it'd be nice to get some that were more competent.

SH

Reality Check

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 188
Re: Sanctioning Organizations vs Governing Bodies
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2005, 06:48:52 AM »
I think the most re-curring theme with regards to sanctioning and conditions is this Tier-ed system. Awards still given irrelevant of condition bowled on, but marked as being bowled on 'Bronze Level' (house Condition), 'Silver' Level (sports shot) or 'Gold Level (PBA pattern).

With regards to ball technology, maybe freezing the coverstocks and cores at the current level would be the best way to start, as this combined with the decent oil patterns should stop people complaining about fluffers as much.
--------------------
Reality Is.......Working out how to carry the 10, only to start leaving the 7.
Reality Is.......Working out how to carry the 10, only to start leaving the 7.

charlee323

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 296
Re: Sanctioning Organizations vs Governing Bodies
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2005, 07:24:49 AM »
Yes I do think the USBC has the right to dictate that there logo be put on the ball, I for one do not see this as being a big deal.  They are like any other business, everything has to be approved by someone.  Most if not all sports regulate there equipment to some extent.  Authentic clothing has to have the sport trademark on them and I believe a lot of the balls out there have the sport logo on them.

guzmand19

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 640
Re: Sanctioning Organizations vs Governing Bodies
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2005, 09:05:30 AM »
A bit irrelevant, but in terms of giving medals to a pattern, I would swap the Sport pattern with the PBA pattern.  Reason being, even the PBA guys "struggle" on Sport patterns while a few of the guys can light up PBA patterns
--------------------
D <~~~~ Used to be terrible wiffing 10 pins.  Now through much practice, can wiff any single pin spare at any time.

Darrell Guzman
guzmand19 - Yahoo IM and MSN screen names

shelley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9655
Re: Sanctioning Organizations vs Governing Bodies
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2005, 09:30:11 AM »
quote:
A bit irrelevant, but in terms of giving medals to a pattern, I would swap the Sport pattern with the PBA pattern.  Reason being, even the PBA guys "struggle" on Sport patterns while a few of the guys can light up PBA patterns



Agreed.  Others I've talked to say that most PBA patterns are not as difficult as typical sport shots.  Look at the US Open and Pattern E.

SH

pin-chaser

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1802
Re: Sanctioning Organizations vs Governing Bodies
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2005, 10:56:04 AM »
It has always been ABC's contention they are nothing more than a sanctioning body and as such they have never wanted to make the hard desicisions. It appears that USBC is attempting to flex its muscles to protect the future and not necessarily regain lost integrity. That in itself is a step forward and small step.

I have always been an outspoken proponate of a 3rd party, non profit organization to establish rules and requlations for the bowling community. Especially since the past ABC has not ever considered itself as such or made serious attempts to do such.

As far as the "born on" logo, I have no problems with this. It might cause a few more dollars that will be passed on, but it signifies the line drawn in the sand where the USBC is starting to make some tough decisions.
--------------------

Bowling Tips and Articles at: www.bowlingknowledge.com
IRC: Internet Relay Chat on Dalnet #striketalk. 24x7x365
Sponsored by: http://bowlerx.com



Chasing pins for 45 years.

shelley

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9655
Re: Sanctioning Organizations vs Governing Bodies
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2005, 11:08:12 AM »
quote:

As far as the "born on" logo, I have no problems with this. It might cause a few more dollars that will be passed on, but it signifies the line drawn in the sand where the USBC is starting to make some tough decisions.



I would prefer to see tough decisions that may actually have an impact on the sport.  I don't see how the logo makes any difference except in price of the ball.  As I said before, there are a very small handful of balls that aren't approved for sanctioned competition, and none in the last few years that I know of.  Thus the consumer/bowler can have confidence that the ball is approved because no manufacturer makes balls that aren't.  

The USBC simply wants EVERYONE to know that they're in control, they want the visibility.  It's basically ad space.  If they want to advertise, let them pay for it.  It'd be better than those god-awful TV ads.  "Bowl....with us."  Yuck.

Knowing the date of manufacture doesn't impart any relevant information either.  It's just another little bit of control where it's not necessary and it costs money.  Maybe that "few more dollars...passed on" is nothing to you but it might be to others.

I think this is where the ball manufacturers have to draw their "line in the sand."  This will drive up prices for no good reason.  Really, I don't give a rat's patoot about the logo, except that it will cost me money to have it there.

SH

Pinbuster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4585
  • Former proshop worker
Re: Sanctioning Organizations vs Governing Bodies
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2005, 11:29:50 AM »
On the label issue.

First is today every ball that is legal its box has an emblem indicating that the ball is approved for ABC sanctioned play.

Second the manufactures are overstating the price of doing this; it wouldn’t add a $1 to the price. They already have a setup to engrave all the logo information on the ball and a serial number engraver that has to change for every ball put through. With some simple negotiations they could probably get down to putting “USBC Approved” above the serial number.

The manufactures already put year of manufacture on the ball in the serial number, it may be a code or it may be numerals but it is there. It couldn’t be that troublesome to simply engrave the month/day/year on the front of the serial number.

Since some of today’s balls would not pass the new regulations this would give a bowler an easy visual check to see if the ball was compliant. If the “USBC” stamp of approval wasn’t on the ball then you would have to do research to see if the ball would be legal after 2007.

pin-chaser

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1802
Re: Sanctioning Organizations vs Governing Bodies
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2005, 11:30:15 AM »
I dont argue your point Shelly. Many other sports acutally have Certification logos on there equipement. So shoudl this sport and if it include a date so be it. I suspect there maybe another reason to start this that is not being expressed... perhaps there is coming a time where there will be a division between approved and non approved balls. Open play balls that exploit the condition for those that want to have "fun". While competition will have balls that wont exploit patterns as much. ABC never was an organization that informed its masses of its thoughts. This is just speculation, but if the R/D costs go down and engraving costs a couple bucks we probally wont see any difference in the cost anyway.
--------------------

Bowling Tips and Articles at: www.bowlingknowledge.com
IRC: Internet Relay Chat on Dalnet #striketalk. 24x7x365
Sponsored by: http://bowlerx.com



Chasing pins for 45 years.

jimsey

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 163
Re: Sanctioning Organizations vs Governing Bodies
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2005, 12:17:22 PM »
Scott

some intriguing questions here.  Maybe a better questions is what do we really want our sanctioning/governing body to do?  Some of the posts on this board have been quite negative toward the proposed changes and often with good reason.  At the  same time, many have questioned the integrity of the sport and the proliferation of high scores attributed to modern equipment and lane conditions.  Where indeed do we start?  Do we wipeout everything and set new standards across the board, or do we change one thing at a time after discussing the most meaningful changes?

As to your questions my thoughts are:

1)  The USBC is attempting to regulate and identify the equipment that can be used in competition.  It is not telling the manufacturers they cannot make a particular product, it will however restrict approved equipment with proper identification to competition that it sanctions.

2) There are actually several sanctioning and/or membership organizations that provide competitive events, however most of them find it much more efficient to utilize the rules and regulations established by ABC/USBC rather than starting over.

3)  I believe that the governing/sanctioning body should have authority over rules, certification of equipment, lanes, conditioning, average documentation, inspections, and a scoring rating system.  I would like to see the proprietors have responsibility for awards, bonding, insurance.

Overall, the industry needs to learn to work together and share information.  That, in and of itself, may be a monumental task.

Bill Thomas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 692
Re: Sanctioning Organizations vs Governing Bodies
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2005, 05:28:28 PM »
Scott,

Sounds like you might be looking to start another business.