I have a guy in my league who clearly sandbags.  I am high average in the league and we pick teams.  I get stuck with him every year cause I get last pick.  No one wants him.  Been on my team 2 years now.   Its not a big money league but that's beside the point.  Sick of his crap.  I talked to the league President he said nothing he can do.  Wanted him thrown out of the league.  He said we can't until he does something wrong.  Well sandbagging is wrong.  Anything else I can do to get rid of him?  It is a sanctioned league.

With all the rain we getting in NorCal, we need more sandbags. We  also have sand bagging by sandbaggers too.

Quote from: trash heap on January 17, 2017, 09:03:39 AM

You can't automatically call this sandbagging. If someone is at that house and is trying their best, then it is not bagging. No rules a being broken. Unfortunately this is a flaw in the USBC. Until patterns are rated (weekly) it is all legal.

I don't understand this.  The person that wants the challenge, and not have an easy shot every week is in the WRONG?  Sorry that idea is messed up.

Again, that is NOT the person I am talking about. I'm talking about the person who is only bowling at the lower scoring alley, knowingly and with INTENT to use that lower average at a higher scoring house to cash in a handicap tournament. In other words, the person that is purposely bowling there in order to make gains at the big handicap tournament. That is, indeed, sandbagging.

Yes, there is a fine line. Yes, there is some grey area. Yes, it is very hard to properly regulate. No, there is absolutely nothing wrong with challenging yourself at a harder house. I NEVER said that. But to go bowl at that house just so you can make profit in a tournament... sandbagging. No different than good teams playing rec league softball and goofing around, and then going into rec league divisions in high level tournaments.

And if that is the only house available to bowl in (or only house close enough), then that is also not sandbagging. Again, I'm talking about the people doing it on purpose. Pretty sure that's what the OP said. Just addressing those people.

If anyone doesn't agree this is sandbagging, well, your head, oddly enough, is in the sand. This happens a ton at the Illinois state tournament. You have jackholes with PBA titles, multiple top 50 finishes at USBCs, etc their resumes speak for themselves. Yet, somehow, these scumbags (in the truest sense of the word: a used condom) get pins at the state tournament and have the audacity to cry when there's no brackets for them? Yeah, it's bagging.

Quote from: JazlarVonSteich on January 18, 2017, 12:43:19 PM

Quote from: trash heap on January 17, 2017, 09:03:39 AM

You can't automatically call this sandbagging. If someone is at that house and is trying their best, then it is not bagging. No rules a being broken. Unfortunately this is a flaw in the USBC. Until patterns are rated (weekly) it is all legal.

I don't understand this.  The person that wants the challenge, and not have an easy shot every week is in the WRONG?  Sorry that idea is messed up.

Again, that is NOT the person I am talking about. I'm talking about the person who is only bowling at the lower scoring alley, knowingly and with INTENT to use that lower average at a higher scoring house to cash in a handicap tournament. In other words, the person that is purposely bowling there in order to make gains at the big handicap tournament. That is, indeed, sandbagging.

Yes, there is a fine line. Yes, there is some grey area. Yes, it is very hard to properly regulate. No, there is absolutely nothing wrong with challenging yourself at a harder house. I NEVER said that. But to go bowl at that house just so you can make profit in a tournament... sandbagging. No different than good teams playing rec league softball and goofing around, and then going into rec league divisions in high level tournaments.

And if that is the only house available to bowl in (or only house close enough), then that is also not sandbagging. Again, I'm talking about the people doing it on purpose. Pretty sure that's what the OP said. Just addressing those people.

If anyone doesn't agree this is sandbagging, well, your head, oddly enough, is in the sand. This happens a ton at the Illinois state tournament. You have jackholes with PBA titles, multiple top 50 finishes at USBCs, etc their resumes speak for themselves. Yet, somehow, these scumbags (in the truest sense of the word: a used condom) get pins at the state tournament and have the audacity to cry when there's no brackets for them? Yeah, it's bagging.

North that's apples and Oranges. What you describe is sandbagging no question. What he is describing is not sandbagging it is a flaw in the system.

Quote from: mainzer on January 18, 2017, 08:37:56 PM

North that's apples and Oranges. What you describe is sandbagging no question. What he is describing is not sandbagging it is a flaw in the system.

Flaw or not, it is still sandbagging. You are PURPOSELY bowling at a house (when there are OTHER options), knowing full well that you will score lower. Then you use that average to cash in a big handicap tournament. SANDBAGGING. Plain and simple.

Read the rest of my other post(s) for who is not included in the above. Not repeating myself again. The system is flawed, for sure, but people are taking advantage of it. That is the definition of sandbagging.

If everyone magically decided to stop sandbagging and only bowled at the highest scoring house available to them, what do you think that would do to bowling?

People already complain about the scores being inflated, what you are saying would just make it that much worse.

And all the houses that put out a "legitimate" shot would be gone.

Personally, I don't see it as sandbagging. But that's because I have a similar situation. There is a bowling alley in my town where I have not bowled a league in years for the simple fact that I score very well in that house. I bowl in multiple other houses and even in a year round PBA league.

 I avoid the one house like the plague for leagues, even though it's the closest to where I live. However, I will bowl handicap tournaments there. Is that sandbagging? I guess it could be called that. But I know what level bowler I am, and the 230+ average I would put up in that house is not a reflection of my actual ability as a bowler, but just in that house.

Now, what we see in this area, is actual sandbagging in my book. Scumbags who will bowl in one sanctioned league and establish a low average and then only bowl in unsanctioned leagues otherwise, where they can bowl to their ability. THAT is sandbagging.

Quote from: mainzer on January 18, 2017, 08:37:56 PM

North that's apples and Oranges. What you describe is sandbagging no question. What he is describing is not sandbagging it is a flaw in the system.

Flaw or not, it is still sandbagging. You are PURPOSELY bowling at a house (when there are OTHER options), knowing full well that you will score lower. Then you use that average to cash in a big handicap tournament. SANDBAGGING. Plain and simple.

Read the rest of my other post(s) for who is not included in the above. Not repeating myself again. The system is flawed, for sure, but people are taking advantage of it. That is the definition of sandbagging.

Preach. There are worse tactics I won't divulge here.

Quote from: JazlarVonSteich on January 19, 2017, 01:37:29 PM

Quote from: mainzer on January 18, 2017, 08:37:56 PM

North that's apples and Oranges. What you describe is sandbagging no question. What he is describing is not sandbagging it is a flaw in the system.

Flaw or not, it is still sandbagging. You are PURPOSELY bowling at a house (when there are OTHER options), knowing full well that you will score lower. Then you use that average to cash in a big handicap tournament. SANDBAGGING. Plain and simple.

Read the rest of my other post(s) for who is not included in the above. Not repeating myself again. The system is flawed, for sure, but people are taking advantage of it. That is the definition of sandbagging.

If everyone magically decided to stop sandbagging and only bowled at the highest scoring house available to them, what do you think that would do to bowling?

People already complain about the scores being inflated, what you are saying would just make it that much worse.

And all the houses that put out a "legitimate" shot would be gone.

Personally, I don't see it as sandbagging. But that's because I have a similar situation. There is a bowling alley in my town where I have not bowled a league in years for the simple fact that I score very well in that house. I bowl in multiple other houses and even in a year round PBA league.

 I avoid the one house like the plague for leagues, even though it's the closest to where I live. However, I will bowl handicap tournaments there. Is that sandbagging? I guess it could be called that. But I know what level bowler I am, and the 230+ average I would put up in that house is not a reflection of my actual ability as a bowler, but just in that house.

Now, what we see in this area, is actual sandbagging in my book. Scumbags who will bowl in one sanctioned league and establish a low average and then only bowl in unsanctioned leagues otherwise, where they can bowl to their ability. THAT is sandbagging.

So let me get this straight. You go to the known lower scoring house (out of your way) to establish a lower average intentionally? Then, go to the higher scoring house which you conveniently avoid for league, but a handicap tournament which I assume has cash prizes you can miraculously make it to? The honorable thing to do would be to avoid said higher scoring center 100% of the time, not this selective shit.

The decision of choosing a center(s) to bowl league has many factors.  (Proximity, available league days/times, staff, conditions, safety and food/drink to name a few).  If the number one reason to choose a difficult house is the resulting average and the benefit you gain from that lower average, then that could be construed as sandbagging.  But if the lower average isn't in the upper part of your list, then probably not.

I have a center nearer to me that I can average higher at.  But I choose the center I bowl at because I have been in the league for several years and have dwindled down to one league.  Also, it is where my wife's dad works and I used to manage the house.  So to me, the average isn't the reason even though I know I could average 230+ at the other center.  They are both nice centers, the higher scoring house is cheaper and has more competitive leagues.  Just choose to bowl elsewhere for other reasons.

In fact, bowling at the lower averaging house cost me a state all-events title.  Didn't realize I was 2 pins under the average for the scratch division and went out and had the highest all-events score for the tournament.  But I was in the lower division (with handicap) and lost out by a few pins.