One more reply here that will probably comes across as non-caring or a-hole but someone has to say it in my opinion.

180 vs. 240 average bowler in hdcp bracket

I'll be nice and only do 80% diff.

so 180 guy gets 48 pins.

If you are a 240 average bowler, that means that you can adjust, change hand positions, brought at least 3-4 balls with you to the tournament.  You are effing good.

You have a bad game (by your standards) and shoot 225.

The 180 guy shoots his average.  Plus his hdcp = 228.

I'm sorry, you lost.  You are 15 pins under your average.  You should lose.

You don't get bonus pins for being good.

You don't get to win most of your brackets just because you are effing good.

It's gambling....you can lose. 

Every bowler who enters a bracket, enters because they think they will make money.  Why else would they. 

And yes, in most tournaments with HDCP brackets, you will run across the "average manipulators".  Don't whine about it.  You know they are there.  You took the risk.  If you lose, just tuck your tail and leave.  They have been there since forever, and I doubt they are going anywhere.

So is there a base number that would make everyone happy. Maybe 233 should be the mark for today's game (700 series, I know its actually 699)? Maybe 220 is just little too low and 240 is too high.

Someone averaging 238 entering a tournament where handicap base is set at 90%of 233. Is giving those 5 sticks per game a big deal? If that bowler bowls his average for the tournament its a scratch score of 714.

Is it a problem that person wins over someone else with a 180 average (47 hdcp) and throwing a scratch series of 570 (711 hdcp series).

I understand one person just threw their average and their opponent threw 10 pins over.

Or is this too much, and that 5 pins should matter giving the 180 average bowler now a handicap of 52 and a handicap series of 726, thus winning.

This is the argument. I can see it both ways.
 
   

Here's an EXAMPLE of two people I bowl with:

Phil averages 235.  Melissa averages 170.  The majority of Phil's games are going to be between 210 & 250.  Melissa will shoot anywhere from 150 to 190.  YES, both could have higher and lower games, but the majority will be in that range of their average.  Right?

In handicapped brackets based on 90% of 220:  Phil gets zero, Melissa gets 45 Pins.  If Phil shoots his average 235, Melissa has to shoot 191 (21 pins above her average) to beat him.  That's at the top of here range for her average.  If Phil shoots 215 (20 pins below his average), Melissa still has to shoot 171 (1 pin above her average) to win.

In this scenario who would your put your money on?  I would take Phil all day long.

Now, let's do 90% of 240. Phil actually gets 4 pins.  Melissa gets 63 pins.  If Phil shoots his average, he will score 239;  Melissa would have to shoot 177 (7 pins over average) to beat him.  If Phil shoots 215 (20 below his average). his score would be 219.  Melissa would have to shoot 157 (13 below average) to beat him.

Who would you put your money on now.  It's a closer call and could go either way.

My point is basing the handicap on 220 gives an advantage to your high average bowlers.  Now, everyone at the tournament I mentioned knew what they were getting into before they put their money in.  I just think with todays higher average bowlers, the handicap needs to be raised.

It's no different that when we went from 200 to 220 in the late 90's and 2000's.  The game has changed.

Still sounds like whining by handicap bowlers. I run handicap brackets in my Monday Night League with avgs ranging from 230, 220(myself), all the way down to 140. The system is 90% of 220. 90% of the time when i shoot avg and I lose. Thats the nature of the beast. The shot isnt the easiest but scoreable. The same way I've shot 260 and lost in my handicap bracket to someone avging 175 and shot 230. You're still receiving pins to level the playing field as a handicap bowler, giving the potential to shoot over 300 and beat any scratch bowler. Again, its the nature of the brackets, get over it and bowl better. You cant lock out scratch bowlers or create a bigger advantage for handicap bowlers. You'll have no money in the brackets as risk will outweigh reward and eventually will have none.
 
What you are describing is what happening in one of the bigger leagues in my area. They went to a 90% of 230 because the shot was more scoreable and now give scratch bowlers the opportunity to get handicap. Scratch bowlers are not on all the time. They struggle at times as well. Also take into account that at 90% of 230, 200-215 have the opportunity for 30 more pins a set. Do you really want to give bowlers in that bracket who have the potential to shoot a set if they matchup in that particular shot?

I also think that part of the issue is that the bowler of today has evolved somewhat due to the THS.

A 230 average bowler today is probably someone who strikes 70% of the time and is greater than 90% on their spare game while being almost 100% on corner pins.

A 215 average bowler today is probably someone who strikes 70% of the time but is around 60% on their spares and 75% on corner pins.

A 200 average bowler today us probably someone who strikes 50-60% of the time but is 50% or less on spares and corner pins.

All 3 bowlers, can shoot a lights out game, but the 230 guy covers his spares while the other 2 miss them.

I don't think the 230 guy out strikes, the others that often, he covers his corners.

What if we say the 230 guy strings strikes better than the 215 guy! I believe it has very little to do with spares my man.

your phil and melissa example is lame. this is the adult league now. unless on a challenging pattern anyone could shoot 300 at any given time.. if your melissa was to shoot an average phil game on that 230 240 bs your talking about, not a single scratch bowler on the planet could beat her because the highest they could bowl is 300.... plus there are a total of 60 to 70 different possible scores that melissa could bowl that would make her the winner no matter what phil bowled, even if he bowled a 300. phil would not be able to mess up at all on any given game to even think about winning....... BY THE WAY THIS ISNT PRESCHOOL.. this is the REAL world. the strong and knowledgeable always win. if you are having such a hard time with the 90% of 220. get better and learn what it takes to average 230.... better yet ill tell you exactly what it takes to average 230. stop bitching, listen to people that average 230 and not someone who doesnt even average over 210, and the most important part. STOP COMPLAINING, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRATICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, WATCH A VIDEO OF HOW YOU BOWL AND ASK SOMEONE WHO KNOWS HOW TO FIX YOUR MISTAKES THEN PRACTICE, PRATICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE again and again. AND WHEN YOUR DONE WITH ALL THIS BITCHING AND COMPLAINING LIKE A WOMAN. GO PRACTICE SOME MORE. AND ONE DAY YOU COULD AVERAGE 230. ITS NOT THAT HARD IF YOU LISTEN TO THE PROPER PEOPLE AND STOP THINKING YOU KNOW EVERYTHING about bowling. those people that average 230 are actually being nice by letting you even have any kind of handicap. if they didnt you wouldnt stand a chance and they would squash you like a bug on a windshield.

Lol! +1. May not be preschool but some are whining like it is.

your phil and melissa example is lame. this is the adult league now. unless on a challenging pattern anyone could shoot 300 at any given time.. if your melissa was to shoot an average phil game on that 230 240 bs your talking about, not a single scratch bowler on the planet could beat her because the highest they could bowl is 300.... plus there are a total of 60 to 70 different possible scores that melissa could bowl that would make her the winner no matter what phil bowled, even if he bowled a 300. phil would not be able to mess up at all on any given game to even think about winning....... BY THE WAY THIS ISNT PRESCHOOL.. this is the REAL world. the strong and knowledgeable always win. if you are having such a hard time with the 90% of 220. get better and learn what it takes to average 230.... better yet ill tell you exactly what it takes to average 230. stop bitching, listen to people that average 230 and not someone who doesnt even average over 210, and the most important part. STOP COMPLAINING, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRATICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, WATCH A VIDEO OF HOW YOU BOWL AND ASK SOMEONE WHO KNOWS HOW TO FIX YOUR MISTAKES THEN PRACTICE, PRATICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE again and again. AND WHEN YOUR DONE WITH ALL THIS BITCHING AND COMPLAINING LIKE A WOMAN. GO PRACTICE SOME MORE. AND ONE DAY YOU COULD AVERAGE 230. ITS NOT THAT HARD IF YOU LISTEN TO THE PROPER PEOPLE AND STOP THINKING YOU KNOW EVERYTHING about bowling. those people that average 230 are actually being nice by letting you even have any kind of handicap. if they didnt you wouldnt stand a chance and they would squash you like a bug on a windshield.

There are probably examples of both.  But I am one of the former.  I have booked in the two teens the last 5 years. I am left handed.  I tracked my 7 pin spare percentage the last 2 years.  I am at 57%.  Not what would me average be if I was a 90% seven pin spare shooter?  Much higher.  I struggle with not ripping the ball on spares and uncupping my wrist.  It is what it is.  I strike as much as the 220-230 guy.  I just can't make a 7-pin consistently.

Quote from: ward845 on October 24, 2012, 11:06:24 AM

Quote from: txbowler on October 23, 2012, 01:47:20 PM

I also think that part of the issue is that the bowler of today has evolved somewhat due to the THS.

A 230 average bowler today is probably someone who strikes 70% of the time and is greater than 90% on their spare game while being almost 100% on corner pins.

A 215 average bowler today is probably someone who strikes 70% of the time but is around 60% on their spares and 75% on corner pins.

A 200 average bowler today us probably someone who strikes 50-60% of the time but is 50% or less on spares and corner pins.

All 3 bowlers, can shoot a lights out game, but the 230 guy covers his spares while the other 2 miss them.

I don't think the 230 guy out strikes, the others that often, he covers his corners.

What if we say the 230 guy strings strikes better than the 215 guy! I believe it has very little to do with spares my man.

How often are you shooting 260+ on a league night TX? The big game really matters and if your'e throwing a turkey and getting tapped and then throwing a double and getting tapped you can't shoot the big game with that happening. You may throw 7 to 8 strikes but if they are broken up too much you will not be able to shoot the big game.