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Author Topic: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets  (Read 17370 times)

Dogtown

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Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« on: October 22, 2012, 09:00:34 AM »
Does anyone else see an issue with scratch bowlers being able to get in handicapped brackets.  Before you answer, here is my problem.

The tournament I bowled this weekend, the handicap brackets were based on 90% of 220.  Naturally, there were several 220+ bowlers getting in every bracket they could.  And they should have, and here's why.  If you average 230 and you shoot your average in handicap brackets, you get 230.  If I average 210 and shoot my average, with handicap, I get 219.  Basically, the 230 average bowler gets 10 pins advantage because the the handicap is based on 220.

No matter what you average, if it is less than 220, you have to shoot "over" your average to beat the scratch bowler who only has to bowl his average.

Needless to say the scratch bowlers who shot their average or better, swept the brackets this weekend.

My thought is if you average more than what handicap brackets are based on, then you should have to give those pins back every game.  So, if you average 230, you loose 10 pins a game if they are based on 220.

Any thoughts.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2012, 10:20:53 AM by Dogtown »
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txbowler

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #46 on: October 24, 2012, 12:00:45 PM »
On a night when I carry, I probably average 225-235.  On nights when I don't or cannot strike a lot, I average 190-205.  It works out to about 215 for the year.

Our house only had 1 800 last year and 6 300's.  I had one.  So it's not super house china.  The carry at the house is ok, not great. 
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 12:05:51 PM by txbowler »
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Dogtown

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #47 on: October 24, 2012, 12:13:50 PM »
Quote from: ithinkican on October 24, 2012, 11:28:55 AM
your phil and melissa example is lame. this is the adult league now. unless on a challenging pattern anyone could shoot 300 at any given time.. if your melissa was to shoot an average phil game on that 230 240 bs your talking about, not a single scratch bowler on the planet could beat her because the highest they could bowl is 300.... plus there are a total of 60 to 70 different possible scores that melissa could bowl that would make her the winner no matter what phil bowled, even if he bowled a 300. phil would not be able to mess up at all on any given game to even think about winning....... BY THE WAY THIS ISNT PRESCHOOL.. this is the REAL world. the strong and knowledgeable always win. if you are having such a hard time with the 90% of 220. get better and learn what it takes to average 230.... better yet ill tell you exactly what it takes to average 230. stop bitching, listen to people that average 230 and not someone who doesnt even average over 210, and the most important part. STOP COMPLAINING, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRATICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, WATCH A VIDEO OF HOW YOU BOWL AND ASK SOMEONE WHO KNOWS HOW TO FIX YOUR MISTAKES THEN PRACTICE, PRATICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE again and again. AND WHEN YOUR DONE WITH ALL THIS BITCHING AND COMPLAINING LIKE A WOMAN. GO PRACTICE SOME MORE. AND ONE DAY YOU COULD AVERAGE 230. ITS NOT THAT HARD IF YOU LISTEN TO THE PROPER PEOPLE AND STOP THINKING YOU KNOW EVERYTHING about bowling. those people that average 230 are actually being nice by letting you even have any kind of handicap. if they didnt you wouldnt stand a chance and they would squash you like a bug on a windshield.

Your whole argument is LAME!!  The whole point of handicapped brackets is to allow for lower average bowlers to compete with each other and not have scratch bowlers come and run the tables.  According to your third grade mentality, everybody should practice to be a scratch bowler regardless of age, gender or physical ability, which would eliminate the need for handicapped brackets.    Also, because you obviously struggle with math, a 170 average bowler would score 233 if they shot their average if the handicap was 90% of 240.  So the scratch bowler would still have a fair chance to win without shooting 300. 
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trash heap

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2012, 01:00:42 PM »
Quote from: txbowler on October 23, 2012, 04:34:13 PM
Trash Heap,

I think your 233 is probably the correct average to base it off of taking the current state of today's bowling into consideration.

We know that bowlers who average more than that, are probably bowling at super great walls of china which do exist but are not at every city and town across the USA.

Yeah. I kind of was thinking back in past years a 600 series was the mark. To me I hear more guys that look for that 700 series mark today.
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ithinkican

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2012, 02:02:17 PM »
you didnt understand what i said. and your calling me the third grader. I said if she shoots 230. meaning scratch. then her handicap game would be around 290. if you do some math and add her scratch total to her handicap total you would see this. 230+60=290. look at the ratios here man. she would beat him no matter what if she bowled a game over 237. even if he were to bowl a 300. the ratio of her winning no matter what if it was 90% of 230 would balance itself out so that she has a massive advantage over him. once you do the math the percentage is way off. And math does not lie. he would win only 32.7844444% of the time and she would win the other 67.2155556% of the time. the objective of the 90% of 220 is to BALANCE THE PLAYING FIELD, which gives the handicap bowlers a more level playing field unless the opponent is averaging over 235. higher average bowlers have a higher percentage of winning in the 90% of 220 but only by 6.1873737373737%. this set up does not to produce a substantial advantage for one person over the other...................................... if the league as a wholes averages over 210. then the 225 or 230 might be considerable then the math works itself out about the same as the 90% of 220..... you just got told.....
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kidlost2000

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #50 on: October 24, 2012, 03:24:14 PM »
This is in reference to a tournament and not league. Yes the numbers show that handicap is a crutch and doesn't favor the lower average bowler. I've not seen a lot of 170 average people men or women shoot 230 in tournaments or at their local house.

80% of 220

average.......................pins over average to shoot  220
130  gets  72 pins                       18 pins
150  gets  56 pins                       14 pins
170  gets  40 pins                       10 pins
190  gets  24 pins                       06 pins
210  gets  08 pins                       02 pins

In tournament and league the lower your average the higher you have to score to reach 220. If you average 220 you would be stupid not to load up in handicap brackets.(especially in tournaments) Because if you shoot your average you will win some money.

In tournaments where the shot is likely to be not as easy depending on the shift you bowl, and spare shooting and strikes become more difficult it favors the higher average bowler.

Many of the tournaments I go to you see plenty of 220+ bowlers getting into handicap brackets for that exact reason.
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Dogtown

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #51 on: October 24, 2012, 03:27:55 PM »
I understand you now, ithinkican.  Do you not agree that if a 170 average bowler shoots 230 scratch, they should win the majority of the time?  You have to look at more than just ratios and consider probability.  How often does that 170 average bowler shoot 230 if they truly average 170.  (I realize people get lucky, people sand bag, etc).   It's NOT that often.

Virtualtournaments.com changed their rules.  Now, handicap is based on 90% of the highest average in the tournament.  That's not a bad way to do it, either. 
« Last Edit: October 24, 2012, 03:32:37 PM by Dogtown »
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Dogtown

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #52 on: October 24, 2012, 03:31:44 PM »
+1 kidlost2000
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NoseofRI

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #53 on: October 24, 2012, 03:31:58 PM »
To the original poster. I'm not sure you understand the meaning of "handicap brackets." This is not like the men's room vs the ladies room. Scratch brackets are brackets where everyone bowls scratch, handicap brackets are brackets were handicapped is used, and NOT specifically for "handicap bowlers." All handicap brackets are meant for, is to give the lower average guy an OPTION to earn a little extra money.

And I can tell from experience, very seldom if ever does a scratch bowler dominate the handicap brackets simply by hitting his average.
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JeffMop

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #54 on: October 24, 2012, 03:36:08 PM »
Quote from: Dogtown on October 22, 2012, 09:00:34 AM
Does anyone else see an issue with scratch bowlers being able to get in handicapped brackets.  Before you answer, here is my problem.

The tournament I bowled this weekend, the handicap brackets were based on 90% of 220.  Naturally, there were several 220+ bowlers getting in every bracket they could.  And they should have, and here's why.  If you average 230 and you shoot your average in handicap brackets, you get 230.  If I average 210 and shoot my average, with handicap, I get 219.  Basically, the 230 average bowler gets 10 pins advantage because the the handicap is based on 220.

No matter what you average, if it is less than 220, you have to shoot "over" your average to beat the scratch bowler who only has to bowl his average.

Needless to say the scratch bowlers who shot their average or better, swept the brackets this weekend.

My thought is if you average more than what handicap brackets are based on, then you should have to give those pins back every game.  So, if you average 230, you loose 10 pins a game if they are based on 220.

Any thoughts.

How about instead of complaining about scratch bowlers, you go practice or take some lessons and improve your game so you don't have to rely on handicap?

I'm sick of people who want more handicap instead of striving to become better so they get less handicap.
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kidlost2000

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #55 on: October 24, 2012, 03:38:10 PM »
"Virtualtournaments.com changed their rules.  Now, handicap is based on 90% of the highest average in the tournament.  That's not a bad way to do it, either."

That really isn't a bad idea.

And yes scratch brackets are for lower average bowlers to get in to compete as well and doesn't eliminate higher averages by any means. At 80% of 220, it does favor the higher averages. The numbers show that. 220 is more likely to shoot their average then 150 is to bowl 14 pins above it. Basing a tournament or brackets off of the idea of making the handicap off the highest average does show a lot more flexibility.

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kidlost2000

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #56 on: October 24, 2012, 03:39:44 PM »
Quote from: JeffMop on October 24, 2012, 03:36:08 PM
Quote from: Dogtown on October 22, 2012, 09:00:34 AM
Does anyone else see an issue with scratch bowlers being able to get in handicapped brackets.  Before you answer, here is my problem.

The tournament I bowled this weekend, the handicap brackets were based on 90% of 220.  Naturally, there were several 220+ bowlers getting in every bracket they could.  And they should have, and here's why.  If you average 230 and you shoot your average in handicap brackets, you get 230.  If I average 210 and shoot my average, with handicap, I get 219.  Basically, the 230 average bowler gets 10 pins advantage because the the handicap is based on 220.

No matter what you average, if it is less than 220, you have to shoot "over" your average to beat the scratch bowler who only has to bowl his average.

Needless to say the scratch bowlers who shot their average or better, swept the brackets this weekend.

My thought is if you average more than what handicap brackets are based on, then you should have to give those pins back every game.  So, if you average 230, you loose 10 pins a game if they are based on 220.

Any thoughts.

How about instead of complaining about scratch bowlers, you go practice or take some lessons and improve your game so you don't have to rely on handicap?

I'm sick of people who want more handicap instead of striving to become better so they get less handicap.

Why do you assume they aren't a scratch bowler?
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Dogtown

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #57 on: October 24, 2012, 03:51:37 PM »
NoseofRI, I do understand.  15 year ago the tournament brackets were 90% (or 80%) of 200.  Why did that change?  Because with todays equipment, the averages went up.  I'm saying that 220 is no longer enough.  Would you get in handicap brackets today if they were still based on 200 (Assuming you're not a 220+ average bowerl)?  What if Chris Barnes was in them?  You would be crazy to.  Just give him the money and walk away.  In my area we see that level of bowlers taking avantage of the 220 cap and carrying a lot of money out the door when they leave.

And I disagree.  Handicap IS specifically for lower average bowlers to be able to compete with higher average bowlers, including the scratch bowler.

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Dogtown

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #58 on: October 24, 2012, 04:00:28 PM »
Quote from: JeffMop on October 24, 2012, 03:36:08 PM
Quote from: Dogtown on October 22, 2012, 09:00:34 AM
Does anyone else see an issue with scratch bowlers being able to get in handicapped brackets.  Before you answer, here is my problem.

The tournament I bowled this weekend, the handicap brackets were based on 90% of 220.  Naturally, there were several 220+ bowlers getting in every bracket they could.  And they should have, and here's why.  If you average 230 and you shoot your average in handicap brackets, you get 230.  If I average 210 and shoot my average, with handicap, I get 219.  Basically, the 230 average bowler gets 10 pins advantage because the the handicap is based on 220.

No matter what you average, if it is less than 220, you have to shoot "over" your average to beat the scratch bowler who only has to bowl his average.

Needless to say the scratch bowlers who shot their average or better, swept the brackets this weekend.

My thought is if you average more than what handicap brackets are based on, then you should have to give those pins back every game.  So, if you average 230, you loose 10 pins a game if they are based on 220.

Any thoughts.

How about instead of complaining about scratch bowlers, you go practice or take some lessons and improve your game so you don't have to rely on handicap?

I'm sick of people who want more handicap instead of striving to become better so they get less handicap.

Thanks, I'm already there.  That was not my point.  But not everybody can "go practice" and become a scratch bowler.  Some people are older, not as physical or whatever.  Do we say "to hell with them"?  Step up or step out.  Are they not allowed to compete?  I thought that was the whole point of handicapped brackets.

Sometimes I think the scratch bowlers don't like it because it's taking away their advantage which means they can't make money easily.    Whatever!!
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NoseofRI

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #59 on: October 24, 2012, 04:17:27 PM »
Dogtown, I'm unclear of what you disagree with, because I never said anything about handicap bowlers competing with scratch bowlers.
My point is that handicap brackets were created to give lower average bowlers a better option for getting into side pots, instead of scratch brackets being the only option.

My other question to you... is the tournament itself based off of the same handicap?  If so, then my next question is, why are you only questioning the handicap brackets?
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buckeyemike75

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Re: Scratch bowlers in Handicapped brackets
« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2012, 12:15:13 AM »
I am a scratch bowler averaging 220+ and the only reason i get in handicap brackets is because there are no more scratch brackets where i live, this is in league play but I bowl several tournaments and there are 3 times more handicap brackets then there are scratch, so im forced to play handicap.  Also all of you are comparing legitimate average handicap vs scratch bowlers, well what happens when a bagger enters the brackets but thats for another thread.
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